Grid Heater Project (Proof of Concept)

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

How are the field units working? Is there a start procedure developed based on temp? Are you able to record the cranking time with and without the heater and time to stable idle?

As these engines age they seem to be more problematic with starting in general and the metallic plugs are just not optimized for this engine design.

minisub · **Posted:** Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:27 pm

Some test results would be welcome. I am concerned about the lack of surface area in the plug-style versus the grids. I've been holding off on the intake as it was intimated a heater option might get included. If the plug is effective, I'm in.

Keith, are you able to adjust the glow cycle for those of us with etecnos?

weeks101 · **Joined:** Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:29 pm **Posts:** 747

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

How are the field units working? Is there a start procedure developed based on temp? Are you able to record the cranking time with and without the heater and time to stable idle?

As these engines age they seem to be more problematic with starting in general and the metallic plugs are just not optimized for this engine design.

Too early to tell on the 3rd party testing. They are getting the kits installed this weekend.

In my own testing, I am tracking ambient air temp, intercooler outlet temp (thermocouple), intake manifold air temp (thermocouple), duty cycle (glow plug run-time), battery voltage at end of said run-time, as well as observable tailpipe smoke, if any. I am not tracking cranking time or time to smooth idle as I cannot do that many things at once and it would be difficult to get meaningful measurements (in the case of crank time, I would need data to the 1/10th of a second to be meaningful). Anecdotally, I have certainly noticed a reduction in both so far this winter. The engine smooths-out quicker and also seems to reach the 25% mark on the temp gauge quicker. (From 25% to 50% is about the same, probably because my inline thermostat has partially opened.) I collect a data point after the Jeep has been sitting outside for more than 8 hours.

That said, I am relying on 3rd party testing to verify the results. The kit is not going to be cheap (it takes 3-4 hours to build the wiring harness alone) so I will not bring this product to market if it doesn't meet my expectations. One tester is at 8,000 ft. in the Rockies (800 CCA battery) and one is in Ohio (dual trunk-mount 800 CCA batteries). Mine is being tested here in Minnesota (950 CCA battery). I wanted to sample a range of cold climates and a range of battery configurations. I had hoped to get a Canadian and/or an Alaskan involved but was not successful.

I went with a smaller glow plug, yes. But that was done intentionally. Keep in mind our batteries have a lot of demand on them as it is (fuel heater, 4x glow plugs, lift pump if present, the starter, etc.) and there is no realistic under-hood location for a dual battery setup, if one would even want to invest that amount of money. My heater is not going to replace your glow plugs, it's intended to assist a functioning glow plug system and compensate for the design flaw, while minimizing the impact on the battery and charging system. As Keith said, the metallic plugs are just not optimized for this engine design.

I'll say this, it's been unseasonably cold this month, even for Minnesota, with overnight lows dropping below 0F and morning temps hovering in the neighborhood of 5F. And it has been effective for me so far, both in the data and in the results. Last winter I was uncomfortable to park for more than 6 hours somewhere and not have the block heater plugged in for fear of a no-start, or a very labored start with lots of smoke out the tailpipe. This winter I have parked outside every single night with confidence it will start when I need it to. For me, that's the whole point.

So, stay tuned...

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:24 pm

How does the wiring work with your kit?
Is it a manual on-off switch or is it automatic and tied into the glow plug controller?

weeks101 · **Joined:** Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:29 pm **Posts:** 747

It is not tied in to the factory glow plugs. It is ran prior to firing the glow plugs as well as after the engine starts.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:50 pm

So what exactly turns the thing on?

95Z28A4 · **Joined:** Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:53 am **Posts:** 297

The 7.3L Powerstrokes use an intake heater and glow plugs

http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-3L-Powerstrok ... 8f&vxp=mtr

The Duramax's also use an intake heater and glow plugs

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delphi-HDS803-D ... 75&vxp=mtr

These intake heaters appear to use a heavier gauge wire for the element than the one you have in your kit. I'm concerned that the smaller gauge wire will become brittle with age, will break and will be ingested by the engine. Has your heater been used in another application? I sure would feel more comfortable if I knew the heating element had a proven track record in similar service.

weeks101 · **Joined:** Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:29 pm **Posts:** 747

The heater element itself is an off the shelf part manufactured by Champion in Italy. It is widely used in various OE applications (Cummins, Ford and Onan).

95Z28A4 · **Joined:** Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:53 am **Posts:** 297

OK thanks for the info. Good to know it has been used before in other diesel engines. Replacement elements are inexpensive.

http://www.accuratediesel.com/shop/157.html

http://www.amazon.com/Champion-167-Glow ... B001S8WPGK

Any idea on cost of the kit?

While you're making new ELLs, have you considered a bung for a boost gauge?

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:09 pm

How many amps does it pull? I bought a lot of 20 of these things for $5 a year ago to use on an isuzu diesel project. Was gonna use a mercedes 240d glowplug harness and relays but never got around to testing the amp draw to see if it would work.

weeks101 · **Joined:** Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:29 pm **Posts:** 747

flash7210 wrote:

So what exactly turns the thing on?

There will be options as far as activation of the heater. I will be offering a base model as well as a aluminum dash-panel replacement, powder-coated black, with toggle switch and voltmeter. The engine harness and cab harness are designed so the cab harness can be easily swapped out.

95Z28A4 wrote:

Any idea on cost of the kit?

No, not yet.

diesel_guy86 wrote:

How many amps does it pull?

30 amps

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:07 pm

As one of the testers, I can say the design is very robust and there is no reason to be suspicious about the end result. Everything in the kit is heavy duty, from the wire harness to the elbow and everything is very well thought, including the position of the wires and heater. I won't say more details about testing since the feedback will go straight to weeks101 and he may or may not change some things as he sees fit. I am confident everybody that will get this heater will like the results.

funnyman06 · **Joined:** Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:46 pm **Posts:** 180

How much of a difference are we expecting this to make? Im going into my first winter with the jeep, but from what ive heard and seen these guys dont have too much of a problem starting when cold? If there something im missing?

I just want to say I love the idea, and love my weeks elbow and im sure itll be great. I just dont really understand the need.

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:29 pm

Theoretically it should make a big difference when the temps are 30s or below, especially when you get closer and below 0. Glow plugs will warm the combustion chamber and fuel from injector and the grid heater will warm up the air that the engine pulls in. Startup would be easier and idling when cold will be smoother. Will be a must have if your truck is parked outside in very cold weather for extended periods of time. Plus, many of us upgraded (or some may say downgraded, lol) to etechno metallic glow plugs that are not as efficient as the ceramic ones in cold weather.

weeks101 · **Joined:** Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:29 pm **Posts:** 747

Below is one potential option for controlling the heater. We are exploring all options right now, but this is the one I am using for testing at the moment. This panel does add cost, the default will likely be a lighted toggle switch with an adjustable audible alert when volts drop to a set level which would mount to the factory panel. The panel below would be an upgrade. In the future we may off other options based on customer feedback and overall demand and production costs. This is all dependent on successful 3rd party testing.

Bare panel, showing modular harness:

Powder-coated replacement panel, one toggle turns voltmeter on/off and the other fires the heater. This allows the user to monitor the battery allowing for longer run times when ambient temps require it.

weeks101 · **Joined:** Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:29 pm **Posts:** 747

funnyman06 wrote:

How much of a difference are we expecting this to make? Im going into my first winter with the jeep, but from what ive heard and seen these guys dont have too much of a problem starting when cold? If there something im missing?

I just want to say I love the idea, and love my weeks elbow and im sure itll be great. I just dont really understand the need.

Glad you are happy with it!

Depending on what glow plugs you have, you may begin to have starting 'issues' around 20F. Last year in Minnesota, we saw temps regular dipping to -25F. Good ol' Polar Vortex

minisub · **Posted:** Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:04 am

funnyman06 wrote:

How much of a difference are we expecting this to make? Im going into my first winter with the jeep, but from what ive heard and seen these guys dont have too much of a problem starting when cold? If there something im missing?

I just want to say I love the idea, and love my weeks elbow and im sure itll be great. I just dont really understand the need.

If you've gone from the OEM ceramics to the etecnos and see temps below 20* you will see the need for more cold weather starting help.

jws84_02 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:32 pm

[/quote]

Nice clean look. I like it

65Corvair · **Posted:** Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:47 pm

It would really cool to see the grid heater relay being controlled by the ECU. This is possible through the use of the connector that was used for the FCV. I assume that the FCV has at least one signal wire to control the valve and one to let the ECU know what the current position is. (If the desired and actual do not match, a check engine code is produced and you FCV is broken) Using the signal to operate the relay, the return wire could be used on the output of the relay to know when the relay is actually on vs knowing when the signal wire is turned on. This is a lot of software work, but if done correctly it could be seamless to the driver.

The dash panels look really good Seth.

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:40 pm

^
l
l

I like his idea...

Grid Heater Project (Proof of Concept)

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