Frozen Fuel Line?

fatweasel · **Posted:** Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:14 pm

Went to start the CRD on Thursday morning here in frigid Michigan.

Temps had been below zero faranheight, block heater was plugged in and on for about 2 hours before trying to start.

Jeep strated right up, ran for about 10 seconds and then quit. I tried cranking a bit - no start.

Opened hood and primed filter and cranked one more time - no start.

I am thinking maybe gelled fuel in the fuel line or fuel filter?

Don't want to damage the high pressure fuel pump by cranking dry.

flman · **Posted:** Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:46 pm

So did it start yet? Did you try opening the bleeder and pumping the plunger? Do you put in Power Service anti gel? Could it be a low battery that is not able to keep the ECU volts up after it is started?

thermorex · **Posted:** Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:12 pm

flman wrote:

So did it start yet? Did you try opening the bleeder and pumping the plunger? Do you put in Power Service anti gel? Could it be a low battery that is not able to keep the ECU volts up after it is started?

+1 to power service, but I thought the winter diesel doesn't gel till at about -10 or -20F?

fatweasel · **Posted:** Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:21 pm

it was really cold, maybe -5 with wind chill -20 or so.

Battery is good.

I don't normally add anything to the fuel.

I am going to wait until Sunday to try again, should be +20 Fahrenheit.

gmctd · **Posted:** Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:40 pm

fatweasel wrote:

it was really cold, maybe -5 with wind chill -20 or so.
FYI: Wind-chill affects only those objects with warm blood flowing thru their veins - mechanical objects are affected by actual ambient temperatures
Battery is good.

I don't normally add anything to the fuel.
Because of EEOC, you should seriously consider adding any required additives to your fuel at your expense - hindsight is always 20\20
I am going to wait until Sunday to try again, should be +20 Fahrenheit.

flman · **Posted:** Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:28 am

GM the jeep is warm blooded until the OD ambient and the temp of the engine, fuel, and other metal parts are the same. The wind chill will cool it down much faster then no wind. Question is, would there be any warmth left in no wind chill vs wind chill? Also, does the intake of the engine sense the wind chill?

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:46 am

I always add antigel any time Temps can drop below 25.

DOC

tedder · **Joined:** Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:19 pm **Posts:** 137

Mine has done the same thing 2x temps were in the teens. I pumped the primer on the first time and got it started. On the second time, I did the same but wouldn't start. Had someone pump the primer while I started and it started right up.

I think that since the CRD has no lift pump so the injector pump has to pull the fuel all the way from the tank it's like the difference between drinking a coke thru a straw as compared to drinking a milk shake thru a straw. The fuel is not a gel yet but is getting thick.

The solution is to install a inline fuel pump which will help the injector get the fuel from the tank. I have done this on my wife's CRD and she has note ever had a starting problem when it is cold.

Here is the part info: Airtex, E8251 it sells on Amazon for $35.

I have had this on my wife's CRD for about an year with no problems at all. Very good product. I did not install a filter prior to the pump as it says in the instructions to validate the warranty.

I have seen several conversations on LJ about installing inline pumps but not for this reason. I installed the Wife's after the rocker change not even thinking about cold weather starting.

I have another pump waiting installation this weekend on mine.

gmctd · **Posted:** Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:16 pm

flman wrote:

GM the jeep is warm blooded until the OD ambient and the temp of the engine, fuel, and other metal parts are the same. The wind chill will cool it down much faster then no wind. Question is, would there be any warmth left in no wind chill vs wind chill? Also, does the intake of the engine sense the wind chill?

Good point, but he didn't mention an engine compartment that was recently warm when he went out to crank it at -5*
(My bad: he did mention block heater warmth, but fuel lines would not have been affected by block coolant heat)

Yes, windy conditions allow quicker cool-down than statically still ambients, even moreso if the wind is blowing directly into and thru the radiator, pushing the heat down and out under the vehicle - but the object being cooled down must be warmer than ambient temperatures to radiate that heat into still or windy condition

Which is why wind-chill affected him, not the KJ

Intake air is only at ambient temperature, not to sensed wind-chill because the blowing wind is at ambient temperature

Outdoor thermometer does not indicate wind-chill

Wet-bulb thermometer can indicate wind-chill (tnx, tedder)

Wind-chill at 10mph is not the same as wind-chill at 50mph

Point being: The wind chill affected him, not the already -5* engine and fuel - nor would it have further effected the fuel turning to slush in the fuel lines at that temperature - 'n'est ci pa?

Also that Airtex, E8251 lift pump is only 3-5psi -

tedder · **Joined:** Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:19 pm **Posts:** 137

Just my

but wind chill is what humans feel on moist skin. If you were to put a cloth sock on the outside air temperature sensor and wet it you would get wet bulb temperature on your inside air temperature readout. Wet bulb temperature is similar to wind chill temperature and tells you the wet bulb depression which can help determine relative humidity. The only time wet bulb and dry bulb temperature is the same is when there is no humidity. Since our engines are not wet or moist they can't feel wind chill.

tedder · **Joined:** Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:19 pm **Posts:** 137

To add to my ambient conditions the engine had sat out in cold conditions all day 9+ hours when I attempted to start it.

tedder · **Joined:** Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:19 pm **Posts:** 137

gmctd wrote:

flman wrote:

GM the jeep is warm blooded until the OD ambient and the temp of the engine, fuel, and other metal parts are the same. The wind chill will cool it down much faster then no wind. Question is, would there be any warmth left in no wind chill vs wind chill? Also, does the intake of the engine sense the wind chill?

Good point, but he didn't mention an engine compartment that was recently warm when he went out to crank it at -5*

Yes, windy conditions allow quicker cool-down than statically still ambients, even moreso if the wind is blowing directly into and thru the radiator, pushing the heat down and out under the vehicle - but the object being cooled down must be warmer than ambient temperatures to radiate that heat into still or windy condition

Which is why wind-chill affected him, not the KJ

Intake air is only at ambient temperature, not to sensed wind-chill because the blowing wind is at ambient temperature

Outdoor thermometer does not indicate wind-chill

Wind-chill at 10mph is not the same as wind-chill at 50mph

Point being: The wind chill affected him, not the already -5* engine and fuel - nor would it have further effected the fuel turning to slush in the fuel lines at that temperature - 'n'est ci pa?

Also that Airtex, E8251 lift pump is only 3-5psi -

Is there a problem with 3-5 psi that I'm not aware of? Seems to work on my wife's CRD just fine. The real measurement is the flow per hour. The idea is give the injector pump some head not to force the fuel through it.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:40 pm

I think much more than 5 psi would be a problem.

DOC

tedder · **Joined:** Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:19 pm **Posts:** 137

That's what I was thinking too. I used this pump in stead of going to the expense of an in tank lift pump. Thanks DOC.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:30 pm

Without working back thru lots of in-line/in-tank discussions to summarize all the reasons I'll just say the consensus conclusion is a working psi on the order of 5 or so was fine, it's just serving as a "boost" pump after all, and that working psi on over 10 and higher was not desirable.

gmctd · **Posted:** Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:42 pm

My bad for leaving that :
- I had to go wash clothes
- this GUI has been problematical for years, in that I can type-in only so many lines, then any\all of the next lines disappear below the lower window sill - scrolling the attempted line back into view results in the next typed letter disappearing the line below the sill again - very difficult to post\reply\respond

My initiated posit was to inform that 3-5psi is good for post-filter installs
- pre-filter and near-tank installs should really have 10-15psi due to losses thru the line and across the filter head with the standard oem filter element
- reduced-micron elements increase the losses
- CP3 bypasses more fuel to the tank as working temperature increases - restrictions result in pulling fuel till temps reside
- bucking\hesitation at hiway speeds are resulted
- this may not be so evident in passenger vehicle on flat terrain
- was one of the major original complaints, BLPE (before lift pump era)
- this would become more evident with increased loading and increased incline travel, as in hilly and mountainous
- if 3-5 works for you, go with it
- any problems when using the little mule as a beast of burden would require rethinking available pressure\volume levels

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it...........................

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:31 pm

With the Carter in-tank pump setup, I am seeing 11-14 psig on the supply line to the injection pump. That is after passing through the factory 10 micron Mopar filter and head and then passing through a NAPA 2 micron secondary filter... Very little fuel pressure drop in the system....

.45Cole · **Joined:** Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:11 pm **Posts:** 17

tedder wrote:

Mine has done the same thing 2x temps were in the teens. I pumped the primer on the first time and got it started.

I would love to do a lift pump, but I'm probably going to sell it before that. Anyways, I commonly start mine here in -20 to -24*F in the NW of Colorado. I use Red Line 85+ exclusively and use their Anti Gel in the winter. Diesel's pour point is about 0*F and I've tested that. The Anti Gel has taken me down to -26*F by the EVIC, and never a problem. Sometimes I have to bleed the air to start it at work, no block heater while at work and it starts and runs every time.

I have heard that a full tank helps, but I crawled (using least amount of fuel) back to town on less than a gallon in the single digits without the anti gel so go figure...

ROKTAXI · **Posted:** Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:15 pm

Where did you mount the in-line fuel pump? And where did you splice in for the electrical?

flman · **Posted:** Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:44 pm

Here is where I mounted mine, and just pull the relay by the battery for fuel pump, locate the normally open terminal of the relay, put some stripped wire into the relay plug, and plug the relay back in.

Frozen Fuel Line?

Who is online