No start, no dashboard, rest of lights OK

geordi · **Posted:** Tue May 26, 2015 9:15 am

GMCTD Isn't wrong - You *will* need dealer programming for the BCM to work. I had a similar situation on another vehicle, a Ford escape hybrid. That vehicle has BCM failures that allow just about everything to work... Except the remote locks and the power locks from any door other than the driver's.

Put in a new BCM, and the car went HAYWIRE because it wasn't programmed. Codes upon codes, the entire dash lit up like a christmas tree. Oh, and the engine started, but it refused to do that more than once. Had to have it towed to the dealer to be reprogrammed. My suggestion: Don't annoy the other computers, do the installation with the battery removed and then just have it towed to the dealer before ever connecting power.

juliecracker · **Posted:** Tue May 26, 2015 1:21 pm

gmctd wrote:

FSM section 8E-5

None of the 2005 Jeep Liberty BCM programmable features appear to be vehicle-specific (other than the current fuel economy calculation and the current values for EVIC-configurable options). This could certainly be different for a Ford.

I can imagine if you use a BCM that is just "compatible" with your vehicle, rather than the exact part number for your vehicle, the programmable features might be incorrect:
- electronic pinion factor (tire size)
- cabin equalization curves (audio system config)
- country code

Or perhaps that's an issue of getting one from a vehicle that was the same model/features? I can't find anything that explains the difference between the various part numbers for the BCM for 2005 Jeep Liberties.

The only thing that might not match my current system would then be the RKE (remote keyless entry) preferences, which are individual customer-specific (and since I purchased my vehicle used, they aren't even my preferences, although I've been happy with them): automatic (rolling) locks, horn chirp, optical chirp, tail gate release, unlock sequence. However, other than the automatic (rolling) locks, I'm pretty sure all of those things were configurable via the EVIC.

geordi - after the car went haywire was it simply a matter of removing the BCM, having the dealer program it, and reinstalling in order to fix it? or did it break something else?

Thanks!

senatorjohn · **Posted:** Wed May 27, 2015 12:35 am

Removed the BCM and junction block about two weeks ago from my spare KJ. Bugger to remove. What grab handels do you need to remove? I removed the knee level panel and got full access from there. Once you unbolt the BCM/junction block unit, you need to remove the two plastic mounting clips, (one cream, one black, from memory) from the unit, it can be pulled out through the bottom of the dash panel downwards close to the A pillar. Took me hours to actually work out how to get it out. Impossible without removing the mounting clips which in themselves are not easy to slide off the BCM/junction block unit. There is a little tang that has to be depressed or lifted from what I remember. Once out, you can unscrew the BCM. My next move is to fit the ECM, BCM, PCM, and security module to see if I can get rid of my air intake pressure sensor problem. Then to tackle the MS solenoid problem in the gearbox. If the Jeep does not behave after that, time for a Toyota.
John

geordi · **Posted:** Wed May 27, 2015 1:48 am

juliecracker wrote:

gmctd wrote:

FSM section 8E-5

None of the 2005 Jeep Liberty BCM programmable features appear to be vehicle-specific (other than the current fuel economy calculation and the current values for EVIC-configurable options). This could certainly be different for a Ford.

I can imagine if you use a BCM that is just "compatible" with your vehicle, rather than the exact part number for your vehicle, the programmable features might be incorrect:
- electronic pinion factor (tire size)
- cabin equalization curves (audio system config)
- country code

Or perhaps that's an issue of getting one from a vehicle that was the same model/features? I can't find anything that explains the difference between the various part numbers for the BCM for 2005 Jeep Liberties.

The only thing that might not match my current system would then be the RKE (remote keyless entry) preferences, which are individual customer-specific (and since I purchased my vehicle used, they aren't even my preferences, although I've been happy with them): automatic (rolling) locks, horn chirp, optical chirp, tail gate release, unlock sequence. However, other than the automatic (rolling) locks, I'm pretty sure all of those things were configurable via the EVIC.

geordi - after the car went haywire was it simply a matter of removing the BCM, having the dealer program it, and reinstalling in order to fix it? or did it break something else?

Thanks!

The BCM had to be programmed while in the vehicle. As for the unit selected, it was a match for the make and model... Which is irrelevant, because the same unit was used across much of Ford's lineup. I'd imagine that Mopar is the same, these manufacturers are nothing if not predictably cheap. Anything they can reuse, they will. Which means that your new BCM may be mismatched with the rest of the computers. It might be as simple as they have to be all told who the other players are on the cable bus, and have the serial numbers for each computer programmed into each other. I don't know. What I do know is that I was told this much by my research online, and I decided to take the chance anyway on the replacement. Didn't work, and it cost me the tow bill. I could have driven the operating car (with just no locks) to the dealer and swapped the computer in their parking lot - the interior of the car was already in pieces b/c the BCM was located on the centerline behind the passenger's left footwell of the center console. What a BUGGER to pull that!

Your situation is less disassembly, but I suspect it will be similar on the electronic end. These are mobile computer labs, more than they are cars.

juliecracker · **Posted:** Wed May 27, 2015 2:41 am

Since my jeep already won't start it will have to be towed to the dealer no matter what to program the BCM - I might just try it and see what happens.

senatorjohn - which year is your KJ? maybe we didn't fuss with undoing things enough to get it loose so it could be pulled out. i don't think that's how it was described in the FSM (although my husband was doing the BCM fussing while I was researching other possibilities). we thought we had to remove more of the dash, which requires removing the grab handle on the A pillar (which I've been trying to remove anyway, to track down a rattle by the tweeter). we still haven't figured out how to remove those darn screws under the caps! otherwise it sounds like i should be happy i've only got an apparent electrical hiccup (fingers crossed everything else works just as it did once it finally starts again!).

senatorjohn · **Posted:** Wed May 27, 2015 6:11 am

Hi.
My spare KJ is 3rd month 2005 manufacture date (America). My daily drive, when going, is 1st month 2005 manufacture date. Possibly only two or three screws to unbolt the module and junction block as a unit. To get the grab handle off, you need a thin wall long socket of 1/4 inch size I think, and I had to grind the outside diameter a bit so it would fit in the recess. You can easily access the screw head then. Has become very time consuming sorting out my Jeep problems. Had a perfectly good 06 petrol model and decided to change to a diesel for better fuel economy and greater towing capacity. Not a good move so far.
John.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed May 27, 2015 10:23 am

Oh - those funny screws can be removed with a nut driver if they are what I think they are. Do they look like you are looking at the tip of a Torx bit? If so - That is compatible with a small socket of the right size, but to avoid having the socket get stuck in there, use a nut driver screwdriver that is purpose-built in that size. Sorry if that doesn't make much sense.

juliecracker · **Posted:** Wed May 27, 2015 2:00 pm

thanks geordi and senatorjohn - i got a 5mm nut driver, which is supposed to be the right size, and it doesn't fit. not sure if the walls are too thick (i bought a relatively cheap one since it had thin walls) or maybe it's really 1/4" and not 5mm? i didn't think to try the SAE version (since i read somewhere it was 5mm and so much else is metric).

senatorjohn - thanks so much for the details about removing your BCM. we'll take another look since it sounds like my jeep should be just like yours (i'll have to check the mfg date, i think it's 4th month 2005 but not positive).

back the garage (and the auto parts store)!

joelukex4 · **Joined:** Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:54 pm **Posts:** 386

The BCM on some Chrysler vehicles are interchangeable and will not require dealer programming. The important item is that you get the exact part number for your replacement. I did this on my Chrysler Town & Country Limited. This vehicle is loaded to the hilt with every option that was available in 2003. It has All Wheel Drive & traction control. At one time I had every light & gauge on in the instrument panel. It was in every gear, every warning light was on, etc. I bought a replacement junk yard BCM and put it in. It has worked flawlessly and I even gained 30000 miles on the vehicle.

I found out that the odometer mileage is stored in the BCM. The BCM I purchased must have been from a car with 30000 less miles on it than my car. I spoke with my dealer and he confirmed that is where the mileage is stored. He even had a business salesman that purchased a new BCM at 100000 miles to reduce the miles on his car prior to selling. He would start from 0 again and put 20 or 30K on the vehicle with the new BCM prior to selling.

The only thing I had to do with the used BCM is reprogram the information that is reprogrammable on the EVIC, door unlocks, lights off, etc.

juliecracker · **Posted:** Wed May 27, 2015 4:43 pm

joelukex4 - thanks so much for the info!! :-)r

what you've described is definitely more consistent with what i read in the FSM. and even if the odometer info is stored in there, the BCM i'm getting is from a vehicle supposedly with 97k and my jeep has 94k - so i'm not going to stress about an extra 3k on the odo if just dropping it in gets me running again!

it should be here tomorrow - i may not get much work done...

geordi · **Posted:** Wed May 27, 2015 8:35 pm

Well, that is a better result than the Ford system. I'm hopeful for you, good luck tomorrow!

juliecracker · **Posted:** Thu May 28, 2015 3:01 am

john - i had to share how happy i am that we've finally made a little progress! i would have been stoked to finally just get those stupid handles off (it was a 5.5 mm long socket that finally worked) so I can chase down a rattle, but we also used your cues about removing the BCM with the junction block. no visible signs of damage on the board or the circuit breakers, but at least we were able to check it out and it's now ready to swap the BCM when it arrives tomorrow. i hope today's successes are a sign of more to come (for both of us!).

senatorjohn · **Posted:** Thu May 28, 2015 7:38 pm

Great to see I have been of some use to someone. Off on about two weeks holiday without internet access so will check your progress when I get back.
John

senatorjohn · **Posted:** Fri May 29, 2015 5:36 am

In my position of ignorance here in Aus., I am still leaning towards a problem with the ECM even though I can see no logical connection to the problem. Have not read any mention of checking if power is getting to the ECM. Pull the 58 way connection off the ECM and with ignition switched on, check for power at harness pin 19, and in start position, pin 19 again and pin 22. If no power, problem with power to ECM for whatever reason. If power available, I am lost. Back to the circuit diagrams. Off on holidays now.
John

juliecracker · **Posted:** Fri May 29, 2015 3:07 pm

john - thanks again for another great tip. we will definitely check that tonight (we ended up not being able to do any work on it last night, so several things to check tonight). have a great holiday!

juliecracker · **Posted:** Sat May 30, 2015 1:13 pm

short update, in case anyone has any flashes of inspiration...

- replaced circuit breakers in BCM. no change
- replaced BCM. no change

put battery on the charger to double check that it has sufficient voltage.

we tried to check the power to pin 19 of the ECM last night, but it really appears that there is no wire behind pin 19. given the jeep was running just fine, it's not likely that it's actually missing (if it's supposed to be there), but it seemed rather baffling.

to test the power to pin 19 we have a 10 gauge wire that we stuck in the 58 way connector. after pin 19 didn't feel like anything was there (the wire just kept going and going) we stuck the wire in several other openings and could definitely feel wire back there.

1 - does anyone know if it's possible the pin-out is different for some reason? my liberty crd was built in 2/2005 per the door sticker.

2 - are some of the wires in the 58 way connector attached differently than others?

next step is to unwrap the wires going into the 58 way connector and see what the attachments look like, i guess.

also, the fact that there are no lights on the instrument panel when the key is turned to "on/run" just seems like such a huge clue, but i can't find anything that explains why that would be....

back to it...

gmctd · **Posted:** Sat May 30, 2015 2:02 pm

FSM 8w-30-26, follow wire from ECM connector pin 19 back to Fuse 14 in junction block (left side end, instrument panel)
- IGN switch on, should be +12v power on Fuse 14 in junction block, no matter what happens with Fords, John Deere's, or Aero Spatiale's
- on the '05 JEEP KJ CRD, which we are concerned with at this juncture, there should be power on Fuse 14 and pin 19 with Ign Switch in RUN position
- this enables all ECM function
- no power, no function
8w-10-26

juliecracker · **Posted:** Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:14 pm

We did a lot more tracing wiring diagrams and testing voltage and resistance yesterday (luckily my hubby is pretty experienced tracing wiring with a multimeter - it's just normally in an office network or house).

We verified that fuses 14 and 8 in the PDC are getting 12V from the battery, but no signal from the ignition side. We verified that fuses 14 and 25 (seat heater - another switched circuit) are not getting power (in any key position) but fuses 11 & 39 (hazard, turn signals) are getting 12V (this is all in the JB). The hazard lights work (and the both-on turn signal lights in the dash come on), which uses unswitched power. The turn signal indicators (on/off using the multi-function control levers) do not work (these use switched power through the same switch that turns on the hazard flashers which is why we think fuse 39 has power).

Then we verified that the new ignition switch we installed last weekend is working properly (at the pin-out).

So I thought perhaps we could trace back from the instrumental panel (EMIC) as one of the first things that "turns on" when the ignition switch is turned to On/Run. But I can't find the wiring diagram for the EMIC in the FSM - just parts of it on various pages (all shown with dashed lines, but no reference section info like the other dashed line boxes). I found the self-diagnostic actuation test for the EMIC in the FSM, but nothing happens when I supposedly initiate it. I created a separate thread just about that, in case someone knew about it specifically: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82270 (I just realized I'm not sure if I posted in the right forum - I'm a little confused about some of the distinctions).

I verified that the dimmer switch works (the dash lights come on, just none of the EMIC indicators or gauges). Per the FSM the BCM monitors the multi-function control lever setting and communicates it to the EMIC via the PCI - which seems to indicate that all of those computers have at least some of their brains still intact.

Next up: swapping/replacing the fuses related to EMIC (I've already put a new fuse in #14 of the JB). I'm having trouble locating one, though. Although I can't find it right now (I'm late for work), I thought the FSM said (in the descriptive text) that there was a fuse for the EMIC in the engine compartment. But I can't find any mention of it anywhere else, or in any diagrams.

Any and all suggestions welcome!

juliecracker · **Posted:** Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:16 pm

New fuses for JB #13 and #34 with no change (I know that #33 is working, since if it's removed the interior lights don't come on).

I swapped the ASD relay with the blower relay in case that had gone out, and I also changed its fuse (F6). No change.

I removed the EMIC bezel so I could take it out, but I really don't see how that's the source of the problem, since it's unrelated to the OBD port (which also isn't working - it appears to have no power).

All the wires and connections behind the dash look clean (as far as I can see without completely removing the dash). It does appear that a previous owner had a trailer brake controller installed, since it looks like there is a splice block in a wire tied in to the brake (that has been cut and taped) and a cut wire attached to a ground screw on the body. But those have been there since I bought the vehicle, so seem unlikely to be related.

At this point I really have no clue, and I'm very depressed. I bought the car when I did so I'd have it for a trip in less than 2 weeks and it looks like it won't be alive in time....

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:28 am

juliecracker wrote:

We did a lot more tracing wiring diagrams and testing voltage and resistance yesterday (luckily my hubby is pretty experienced tracing wiring with a multimeter - it's just normally in an office network or house).

We verified that fuses 14 and 8 in the PDC are getting 12V from the battery, but no signal from the ignition side. We verified that fuses 14 and 25 (seat heater - another switched circuit) are not getting power (in any key position) IGN SW RUN feeds F13, F14, and F36 in Junction Block - trace back from ECM pin 19 thru 10a F14 (on 8w-10-26) thru IGN SW RUN to BATT A1 thru C100 (to 8w-10-21) thru 40a F14 in PDC to BATTERY
- ensure each fuse has power on battery-side terminal and load-side terminal
- ensure the DVM NEG BLACK lead is reliably grounded in engine compartment and inside cabin

Then we verified that the new ignition switch we installed last weekend is working properly (at the pin-out).

.

Any and all suggestions welcome!

No start, no dashboard, rest of lights OK

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