Transmission issues/Clutch Volume Index relearn?

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:28 pm

Short story, I got transmission issues of some kind. I had a pancake filter split and start sucking air, basically acting like the trans was very low on fluid. I replaced the filters and refilled and have been driving it. This was a number of years back now.

However after about 1000 miles of driving the transmission shifts WEIRD. Sometimes like it wont upshift to final gear, other times if you let off the gas its like you just hit the brake hard and it throws you forward. It gets progressively worse the more miles you drive since the last relearn.

I drove to ND for work and then back this week. About 1900 miles, plus whatever I had at home since I last did the relearn. Shifting funky, not smooth at all. And then I go in and do a CVI relearn with the DRBIII, and everything shifts smooth as butter. No issues, perfectly normal shifting.

So now that I know a CVI relarn seems to fix my shifting for a few thousand miles, whats actually going on during the relearn?

olypopper · **Posted:** Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:08 pm

How many miles on your trans? My experience with the 545RFE has been good with the exception of the solenoid packs. They tend to fail long before anything else and often times they are overlooked by inexperienced techs and failures tend to be blamed on the torque converter and pump when the solenoid pack is the root cause. It should almost be a tune-up item at around 100k in my opinion.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:35 pm

olypopper wrote:

How many miles on your trans? My experience with the 545RFE has been good with the exception of the solenoid packs. They tend to fail long before anything else and often times they are overlooked by inexperienced techs and failures tend to be blamed on the torque converter and pump when the solenoid pack is the root cause. It should almost be a tune-up item at around 100k in my opinion.

I don't recall the mileage, I replaced it once before. Maybe 100k.

I don't see how the solenoids are related to what I experience. Solenoids still engage and disengage, and I wouldn't think they are related to whatever happens during the CVI relearn.

olypopper · **Posted:** Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:50 pm

Clutch Volume Index relearn simply allows the TCM to learn how long it takes to completely engage the clutch packs so that a normal engagement pattern can be established, even if the clutches are severely worn.

You might be surprised at what kind of random and intermittent failures can be caused by the solenoid pack as it ages. If your failure were a hard part like a torque converter or pump, etc.........I would think that your problem would come back immediately.

Something you may want to watch closely is the slip that is monitored by the TCM. Do you have a scanner that can monitor that parameter?

ebbnflow · **Posted:** Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:44 pm

I've been fighting a similar battle for at least 2 years, but I don't have a DRBIII. Mine shifts hard from 2-3 99% of the time and shifts to 4th prematurely on occasion. I have paid for a quick learn a couple time which makes it shift like butter for 50-100 miles. Once in blue moon it will shift smooth on its own.

I have replaced the solenoid pack, replaced filters, added extra fluid. Nothing has fixed it. Another member, Lars , had the same issue which he solved with a new tranny.

I keep wishing my tranny would explode to force me to buy a new one.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:30 am

olypopper wrote:

Clutch Volume Index relearn simply allows the TCM to learn how long it takes to completely engage the clutch packs so that a normal engagement pattern can be established, even if the clutches are severely worn.

You might be surprised at what kind of random and intermittent failures can be caused by the solenoid pack as it ages. If your failure were a hard part like a torque converter or pump, etc.........I would think that your problem would come back immediately.

Something you may want to watch closely is the slip that is monitored by the TCM. Do you have a scanner that can monitor that parameter?

I have a DRBIII, though I am not familiar with that "slip" parameter. I will have to take a look for that later.

Again I don't see how its something like a solenoid, either it works or it doesn't in that case.

The nearest I could ever figure what that my clutches continue to wear, and after 2k miles they have worn enough that I need to redo the CVI, however I feel like if that were the case by now I should have completely worn out some clutches and it would have no go.

This brings me back, what actually changing after 2k miles in my transmission? I agreed that something like a TC would either work or not. I used to wonder how long it would take for this thing to grenade. But it hasn't happened yet and the process is pretty repeatable.

The only other comment to throw in the mix is that driving with OD off seems to greatly effect the behavior.

Yeti · **Posted:** Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:40 am

read the trans temp , if is not plausibile ..........example-18 F when warm , you have solenoid problem and can cause every strange shifting problem but you must monitor this parameter when the problem occur , BTW it seems a pressure problem

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:32 am

Yeti wrote:

read the trans temp , if is not plausibile ..........example-18 F when warm , you have solenoid problem and can cause every strange shifting problem but you must monitor this parameter when the problem occur , BTW it seems a pressure problem

Its been a few years since I looked at the trans temp, but last time I looked(when I also had this issue, it was reading).

I would also add it seems different when the trans is cold vs hot. Again everything is great after a CVI relearn, so I have limped it along this long doing that.

Yeti · **Posted:** Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:54 am

let us know if the problem return and after how many miles

I ask you the same, although I think it's unnecessary, but did you see whether there were errors in the TCM ?

olypopper · **Posted:** Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:02 am

I had a Nissan Pathfinder years ago that went to the dealer multiple times for random strangeness similar to what you are experiencing. I finally took it to a good friend and after about a 10 minute drive he stopped and put one more quart in the trans and it was fixed. The trans circuits must all be filled sequentially and when you are cruising in OD, all circuits are full of fluid and there is very little remaining fluid in the pan...........drop an extra qt in it. Can't hurt to try and if it works, what the hell.

Just throwing it out there.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:36 pm

Yeti wrote:

let us know if the problem return and after how many miles

I ask you the same, although I think it's unnecessary, but did you see whether there were errors in the TCM ?

The problem will return, and the longer I wait the worse it will get. In a 1000 miles it will uncomfortable. In 2000 miles it will almost be dangerous trying to get it to shift at 70mph/110kph. In 4000 miles I will have to keep the OD off button to keep it driving.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:38 pm

olypopper wrote:

I had a Nissan Pathfinder years ago that went to the dealer multiple times for random strangeness similar to what you are experiencing. I finally took it to a good friend and after about a 10 minute drive he stopped and put one more quart in the trans and it was fixed. The trans circuits must all be filled sequentially and when you are cruising in OD, all circuits are full of fluid and there is very little remaining fluid in the pan...........drop an extra qt in it. Can't hurt to try and if it works, what the hell.

Just throwing it out there.

I'll double check but my recollection is that I ended up overfilling it quite a bit already.

Yeti · **Posted:** Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:41 pm

Sir Sam wrote:

Yeti wrote:

let us know if the problem return and after how many miles

I ask you the same, although I think it's unnecessary, but did you see whether there were errors in the TCM ?

The problem will return, and the longer I wait the worse it will get. In a 1000 miles it will uncomfortable. In 2000 miles it will almost be dangerous trying to get it to shift at 70mph/110kph. In 4000 miles I will have to keep the OD off button to keep it driving.

ok , but you do not have dTC in the TCM ? its seem fluid pressure problem

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:43 pm

If its not a fluid or filter problem and there is no clutch slippage, then it has to be a valve problem.

It could be the solenoid pack.
But I'm thinking its one or more valves within the valve body.
Maybe a thorough disassebly and cleaning of the valve body will fix it.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:26 pm

Yeti wrote:

Sir Sam wrote:

Yeti wrote:

let us know if the problem return and after how many miles

I ask you the same, although I think it's unnecessary, but did you see whether there were errors in the TCM ?

The problem will return, and the longer I wait the worse it will get. In a 1000 miles it will uncomfortable. In 2000 miles it will almost be dangerous trying to get it to shift at 70mph/110kph. In 4000 miles I will have to keep the OD off button to keep it driving.

ok , but you do not have dTC in the TCM ? its seem fluid pressure problem

Ah right, forgot to answer that part. No DTC for the TCM.

flash7210 wrote:

If its not a fluid or filter problem and there is no clutch slippage, then it has to be a valve problem.

It could be the solenoid pack.
But I'm thinking its one or more valves within the valve body.
Maybe a thorough disassebly and cleaning of the valve body will fix it.

So what happens during a CVI relearn that clears up the issue with a valve that doesn't happen during normal driving?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:59 pm

If one of the valves in the valve body is not able to hold the required pressure (leaking past a seal) the TCM will continue trying to adjust fluid pressure. Eventually the adjustment limit will be reached and drivability problems will occur.
The leak is small and the adjustments tiny, which is why it takes 1000 miles or so before it starts acting up.
Doing a relearn zeroizes the adjustment and makes it drivable again for a little while.

Its just a guess.

I'm sure a good transmission shop has a special set of gauges for checking pressures inside the transmission and can do a more thorough diagnosis.

lars0247 · **Joined:** Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:09 am **Posts:** 98

Mine had a rough 2 to 3 and sometimes 3 to 4 shift. It felt like it would bind momentarily like hitting the brakes. A quick learn would make it shift great, but then after a few hundred miles, the rough shift(s) would be back.

Some on this forum with similar issues have replaced the valve body, solenoid pack, input/output sensors, all to no avail. See viewtopic.php?f=5&t=78883

There is only one fix I know of, and it worked great for me. I replaced the transmission with a low mileage used unit out of a 2009 Dodge Ram 1500.

I also think a proper rebuild would cure this, but since the used unit was only about $480, it was much cheaper than paying some one to rebuild it.

I have a few thousand miles on the Jeep since I swapped the transmission, it shifts great and instead of getting worse after the initial quicklearn like the old transmission, it just got smoother and smoother as I drove it to the point where it is almost hard to tell when it shifts now, plus the torque converter from the Ram really couples better.

Transmission issues/Clutch Volume Index relearn?

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