Crank..No Start...REALLY...No Start

kmaylone · **Posted:** Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:08 pm

Driving down road and quit. Cranks....no start. Purchased from orig owner as non-runner at 93k. Typical Liberty issues....started ejecting cam followers due to incorrect oil. Pulled engine..bearings..ringed...cleaned intake...egr delete...etc. Put together...ran excellent for about three weeks. :JEEPIN:

Towed home...air in fuel system. Ok....replaced filter head with "new and improved" version. Ran great for another two months. :JEEPIN:

Towed home...

This time....no crank (praise God for AAA). Checked out...starter went away. Replaced starter with new one...good to go. Mrs. begins driving it again, to work (100 miles per day) and is no power...towed home. :JEEPIN:

Really.....you are sh!!ten me. Ok....more fuel lines...air. Now has went 3500 miles. So....I take it one day and go for a parts run to town....15 miles one way. On the return trip the Liberty died...KaPutt...not even a resemblance of life. Towed home again. Towed home four times in less than 5k miles.

So...reading LostJeeps....and owning other vehicles I understand that there are known issues. Not wanting to spend a lot of time ($ vs cost of part vs labor time) I purchased a new crank and cam sensor. They are hall affect...magnets get weak. Well...nope...crank with no start. Began performing electrical diag...fuel checks...codes. :5SHOTS:

Had the P0090,P0093,and the std EGR since mine is disabled. I have a contraption I made to assist in fuel diag....mounted boat style five gallon fuel container on roof...gravity fed with clear fuel lines....no air.

During crank have plenty of fuel returning to the container...no air. Code says solenoid circuit....was getting intermittent readings. Ordered fuel rail from Germany...installed. Went from 30 psi rail pressure to 500...however this is not enough. Began checking....replaced the cascade fuel valve in the pump. How have 1750 lbs of pressure at crank. However....still crank...no start. Get return fuel through the return lines in the injectors. Soooo....conventional wisdom says the injectors are not opening to fire the engine.

Well...thought of that. Background is I am a 30 year ASE Master and have been around the block a couple of times. So....I removed the intercooler hose from the elbow wanting to see if would run on propane. Ok....get your breath.....I use propane all the time to initially start engines. Like everything else....do not get stupid. To make a long story shorter....will not fire on propane. This is odd...is compression ignition engine...should run. The Ford 7.3 will...the GM.6.2 will...the Cumins series do...the Isuzu's will....the 6.0 will....so wtf...."right" !

Maybe the cams have slid in the "Rube Goldberg" style pulley/cam fastener situation....hummmm...no taper or keyway. So....performed compression test....have between 395 and 400 psi across the board. This thing should run on propane....will not even belch....

Cannot figure how to post photos....

So.....any ideas....other than a "Dupont" repair. :banghead:

First post to site so please forgive any "indiscretions"

Thanks....

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:12 pm

I have no idea why it wouldnt fire with propane. If you have compression it should fire.
Unless your mixture is off.

Check ASD fuse, ASD relay, and security key programming.
Verify that there is no air in fuel.
Check cam and crank sensor signal.
Check for codes.
Make sure that the fuel rail pressure solenoid is properly connected.
Thats all I can think of.

kmaylone · **Posted:** Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:40 pm

Scratching my head...thanks for the input.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:55 pm

GDE said the blow by is terrible on these engines, so maybe that explains the no fire on propane.

There is always overflow coming off of the injectors, so don't worry about that. The test procedure to check the injectors measures the amount of flow exiting them.

I would swap the ECU if you can get a used one for fairly cheap.

Maybe the MAP sensor bit the dust, or the CP3 if the pressure is low? 500 doesn't meet the minimum.

You can pop the returns off of the injectors and have someone turn it over 8 seconds while you watch if one of them is gushing fuel. I do this and just watch for a quick visual that they are bypassing about the same amount when I suspect an injector.

If you turn it over for a few 8 second cycles, can you smell fuel out of the exhaust? I'm just wondering if one injector blew it's tip off or otherwise died in a major way, and is dumping fuel, which could maybe keep rail pressure below the 3000 or whatever the minimum is.

If the alternator shorted out just right it might cause this as the ECU also needs to pass some signal there.

If the intake temp sensor connection is bad, or the sensor died it could cause this.

There are probably a few more I'm not thinking of. Please let us know if you find it :JEEPIN:

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:13 pm

oh, I'd also take a REALLY close look at all of the ecu pins, I had one like this, and it was just a toasted pin. I scrubbed it with a tiny piece of sandpaper, and bent it like 1mm and put a little contact goo on it, and it ran like a top. The previous sold it because they couldn't figure it out :banghead:

It was slightly dark and carbonized

Where are you located? Some of us have extra parts on hand that you could borrow to swap

Billwill · **Posted:** Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:54 am

What year is this CRD?

Checked all fuses under the hood and inside the cabin?

Swap over ASD relay or briefly jumper pins 30 and 87 inside the ASD relay socket.

No Red LED on the cluster for SKIM anti theft system? Early KJs have an Amber Key icon instead of the red LED.

Disconnect battery and pull connectors off the ECM, check the pins and re-plug the connectors a few times to clean them.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:05 pm

That reminds me. If it's an 06, look behind the fuel filter head for damaged wires, they get chaffed through sometimes.

a. waterfield · **Joined:** Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:00 pm **Posts:** 58

sounds like MProp valve in fuel pump is sticking / stuck.? I had similar issue crank no start plenty of return. in voltage terms i had 0.6v from rail pressure sensor, should be around 1.2v to start. For me disconnecting the electrical connector would make it fire then it would over pressure and stall - but proved it could fire.

Its an easy test to do, you can check rail pressure/volts too to see verify that disconneting MProp has made any difference. For me also the vehicle had been taking in air for a long time and concequently caused early nozzle wear and mprop wear, I believe due to lack of lubrication.

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

You can pull the fuel return line off the top of the injectors and crank it a bit. If you see air bubbles coming out of an injector it is failed and needs replaced. We have see this issue on a few CRDs. Hope that is helpful.

kmaylone · **Posted:** Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:40 pm

I am in SW WA...30 miles NE of Portland Oregon area..

Say...how do you past photos ?

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

Your Jeep's crank-no start does sound similar to mine. Couple of things...

In your OP you mention that you replaced the cascade valve in the CP3. Did you mean the FCA/MROP? The solenoid that comes off with 3 torx screws and has an ECM connection? I ask because the CP3 does have a valve called a 'cascade vavle'. But it is internal and not replaceable from all of the research I've done. I ask because I have read that they can go bad, usually from debris/dirt in the fuel. As I understand the operation of the CP3, the cascade valve controls the flow of fuel to the lubrication circuit of the pump. And any excess fuel is dumped back to the tank - a similar situation to the FCA/MPROP. In both cases (the cascade valve & FCA/MPROP) these devices have a direct route to dump fuel back to the tank vs. sending adequate fuel to the high pressure side of the CP3. Our situations sounds similar - plenty of fuel getting pumped into the low pressure side of the CP3 - but most of it seems to be getting dumped right back to the tank with little being sent to the high pressure side and ultimately up to the rail.

Also, with the codes you are trying to root cause. Double check the pictures I posted yesterday. I also had a slew of similar codes stored. I really think those codes are/were associated with the wires that that rubbed through and were arcing (to ground) against the alternator/intake casting. In my case the arcing was severe enough that the nearby wires and casting all had burnt brown arc tracks. The chaff spot isn't easy to see. Its best to just pull that bracket off and pull the wire loom protective coating back. The bracket comes off with 3 easy access bolts.

I am still wondering why this amount of arcing wouldn't have blown a fuse. And with no fuse getting blown, did it cause some permanent damage to the ECM. In the case of my Jeep, when it quit it had been running fine, just got off the highway and rolled to a stop. Then upon accel all of the gauges and electrical in the Jeep went out - just like you turned the key off, but obviously the key was still in the run position. Turn the key off, then back on to try and restart and all of the gauges & electrical came back on. But no start - and hasn't started since.

So all in all, yes and I am walking through a ton of similar items as you. Systematically replacing mechanical items in a fairly logical order to try to get this thing to start. But I am still suspicious of the root cause truly being electrical somewhere. That said, while I am hopeful, I have doubts that the install of the new FCA/MPROP tomorrow will solve my issue.

kmaylone · **Posted:** Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:24 pm

Well....no...the cascade valve is on top of the pump...controls fuel diversion. I finally had fuel pressure return (by scan tool readout) vary from 450-1400 psi at crank. Was never the same each scan. Kept setting the p2294 p0090 codes. Since was way less expensive and labor intensive to replace fuel rail than purchase individual sensors...ordered one from Germany. With freight was less than $600 and did not have to mess with all the labor issues.

Everything set to go...hooked up...crank...no data. :furious:

So...fiddled with for another three hours...a buddy and I decided it had to be the CP3 high pressure pump. The testing procedure from here out required a bi-directional tool that I am not going to purchase...so...I called Fuel Injection Service Oregon in Eugene Oregon. You mentioned them in previous threads. I have ordered numerous parts from them in the past. I explained the situation...would be a road trip...would have to wait for the vehicle since the miles and would be on a trailer. Answer was "No Problem".

I give them all my data...had my gravity fuel system still installed...backed trailer in shop...let them at it. A couple...three hours later the service manager come got me explaining the CP3 pump was bad. Well....go F'n figure.. :5SHOTS:

got to tear the front off again. They got same codes as me...all in same sequence...irratic fuel pressure..knew not delivery so they pressurized the system with a minimum delivery pressure change. They did one more test I will not describe unless you are VERY certain of your diagnosis to confirm.

Long day...19hrs...however...was well worth the "second pair of eyes".

Interesting...during discussion in the shop...they have not seem many pump failures on the Liberty. Guess I am "lucky". I run alot of BIO through after I got it back together so concerned this is "self inflicted" from the cleaning action of the B20.

How do you post photos ?

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

I updated my thread. Long story short. I put in a brand new CP3. Still no start. Leaning towards stuxk injector now.

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Crank..No Start...REALLY...No Start

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