Where are you getting an O.E. thermostat assembly for $80.00?

Probably Crown. There is a reason idparts does not sell them but some use them.

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Sold to LOST member my 05 Ltd, GDE Stg II turbo + TCM tune, SunCoast TC w. Transgo kit, Steiger window regulators, Samcos, Fumoto valve, 2nd gen filter head with Lub. Spec. bleeder, Hayden clutch & 11 blade fan, inverted spare, P-1 battery, BF Goodrich Long Trail TAs, Etecno1 glow plugs, timing belt at 50K miles/8 yrs

Now, add the e-fan, thanks to the port that makes the set-up much more reliable (the radiator temp probes suck, and caused me to overheat the engine once, long story), and you've gained another .5 to 1.5 mpg, depending on your driving conditions. Now the HDS is really paying off fast. I can only hope that I (and others) can get back to the table with MPG numbers with the HDS installed before Jeff possibly loses momentum on this project. I know that this mod, just like the GDE tune, will pay dividends for as long as I'm burning diesel in my CRD's...

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05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,WW Ironrock trilink&LCA's, OX rear,ARB front, 4.10's, ARB bumper, Suncoast,OME 3.5, JBA UCA,rock rails, Moabs&265/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,FFD fan,ARP's, 2 micron fuel, new valves,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, tensioner relocated
Mech fan, VH & AC delete

You're not taking into account better MPG's, more soot in the engine do to poorer combustion, and the value of your labor that's wasted changing out factory stats. Now, the inline might be ok if you drive like a grandma all of the time, and no big grades, or heavy towing, or sitting in traffic when it's 100+. But, then again, driving like a grandma causes the CAT to get plugged, and can melt down the head also.

I have a leaky head gasket do to an inline, I've overheated my engine twice, and I've driven several CRDs, enough to see that the inlines are dangerous, especially if you take your jeep offroad. Driving slow up really steep roads when it's even 85 degrees out is pretty lame with an inline. Even the Hayden mechanical fan kicks in too late for my comfort level. I had the temp gauge jump to 3/4 in those conditions. I almost boiled over because I wasn't watching, as it wasn't even hot weather...

The costs of a warped, or cracked head, or possible destruction of the engine, so far outweigh any possible additional cost (which isn't going to happen do to decreased fuel consumption) that I just don't see a good argument against the HDS.
Ok, if you take the $500, and invest it in a good dividend stock, and roll the dividends back in (compound interest), then you might be able to show that the inline has merits, in a flat-land, non heavy towing environment. But, most people who drive a diesel fear the stock market like the plague, and maybe they're right to do so...

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05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,WW Ironrock trilink&LCA's, OX rear,ARB front, 4.10's, ARB bumper, Suncoast,OME 3.5, JBA UCA,rock rails, Moabs&265/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,FFD fan,ARP's, 2 micron fuel, new valves,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, tensioner relocated
Mech fan, VH & AC delete

People sell their CRD's and have left over parts. I currently see low $100's for OEM.

This implies that everyone that has a failed OEM thermostat currently running even though they are running cold is in danger of cracking their head because the bypass circuit is shut off. Or is it safe due to the thermostat being open to the radiator? if that is the case and you are running an inline stant with the 1/8" weep hole this should be the same situation because you have flow to the radiator.

Flash7210 was running the Meziere inline thermostat which in the pictures looks to be farther from the OEM thermostat than using an inline Stant. Does it have the weep hole to allow flow prior to opening?

Now, Geordi, you know that getting empirical evidence to support that my product is the superior choice is astronomically expensive and time consuming. Have you asked for the same evidence from Green Diesel Engineering or from Sasquatch Motorsports? Let us be fair here!!

I am asking CRD owners to look at the thought processes that went into the various solutions available for the engine over-cooling problem. Several of those individuals who have advocated the Stant in-hose inline thermostat with an unmodified O.E. thermostat assembly have indeed been burned by cylinder head problems. Not everyone of course; probably not even the majority, but enough problems have occurred to consider this solution to be risky. The other solution using a gutted O.E. thermostat housing in conjunction with a Miziere in-line thermostat housing is a better idea, but presents some problems of its own. Both solutions are the products of minds that think they know better than the engineers that designed the engine in the first place.

In comparison, the H.D.S. Model 001 is the product of minds that do not question the basic function of the O.E. thermostat or the mind-set of the engineers that designed it. There IS NO problem with the O.E. thermostat's design, other than the fact that the valve inside is cheaply made, it opens up at too low a temperature, and is not serviceable. We who designed the Model 001 therefore addressed only these three problems, and by doing so have avoided the pitfalls of the other solutions that are trying to re-invent the wheel.

The R428 is NOT an old small block Chevrolet V-8, (or Ford or Dodge V-8)... you can not tinker with it as freely and expect no consequences. In fact, all of today's internal combustion engines are stressed higher because they put out more power per cubic inch, and therefore by necessity all of the operations of these engines are controlled by tighter parameters that are affected by a backyard mechanic's tinkering.

I'll give you another example. Does anyone remember the old Kawasaki Z1 series of motorcycle engines? They were famous for their bulletproof indestructibility and reliability, simply because the engine block, crankshaft, and cylinder head were so over-engineered for the stock horsepower they put out. You could perform all kinds of modifications and they still ran reliably. The Z1 engine can easily withstand a doubling of horsepower and still hold together, which is why they were the favorite engine to modify for drag racing. Try to double the horsepower in a modern Kawasaki ZX14 engine, and it will not last, nor does it take to tinkering as well.

Does this mean that the ZX14 engine is not as good? No... in this case it simply means that the ZX14 engine can not take modifications and great increases in horsepower as well as the Z1 engine because it is more stressed, (produces a lot more horsepower), to begin with. Such is the case with the R428 engine in comparison to an old Detroit V-8.

Here is something else to consider... nobody is questioning the price for either GDE tunes or the Weeks elbow kit, and yet their profit margins are way more than twice as much as mine. I find it rather amusing that people complain about how much the Model 001 is, yet they have no problems spending $225.00 USD on an intake elbow that does not cost more than $70.00 to make.

Proper engine temperature control is every bit as important as shutting down or physically removing the pollution control on these CRD engines.

It is safe from causing cylinder head warping/cracking/head gasket issues because the main valve is open to the radiator. The danger is present only when the inline thermostat valve is installed in conjunction with a failed O.E. thermostat assembly and only during engine warm-up, where both the bypass valve AND the inline valve are closed... there is simply nowhere for the coolant to go. The 1/8" weep hole is not nearly enough of a substitute for a proper bypass circuit, and it interferes with proper engine temperature control.



Flash7210 uses a modification that does not require a weep hole. Remember that he has gutted his O.E. thermostat assembly and has completely removed the O.E. thermostat valve, so the bypass circuit is always open. While this cures the problem of uneven heating of the engine during warm-up, it can possibly contribute to overheating in severe driving conditions due to the fact that the bypass will always bleed off some coolant that should be going through the radiator to be cooled.

Yes.
I drilled a 1/16th hole in the side of the thermostat just to be safe.

Back in July I did some tests with a temperature probe (not a IR temp gun) and compared to the temp sensor reading on my TorquePro app.

Engine fully warmed up and idling. Torque Pro showed coolant temp of 194 F
Temp probe readings:
At the seam where the factory thermostat bolts to the head= 195 F
At the top of the factory thermostat outlet= 195 F
At the Meziere housing in the outlet hose= 194.5 F

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U.S. Army Retired

This is turning into a great discussion

All this talk about proving the effectiveness of various thermostats wants me to take a trip all the way to the top of Pike's Peak!

Who wants to fund my expedition...

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U.S. Army Retired

This is relatively minor compared to the time and $$$$$ investment you've put into this product. An expected part of your marketing strategy should be to back up your claims with data. Simple statements such as improved mpg, better cooling and faster heat up don't really cut it.


...apart from the price. Granted, you have the best solution. At $100 I'd buy and install one tomorrow. Of course, I know it's worth much more than that. At $200 I'd certainly buy one when my current OE 'stat fails. At $300 I'd seriously consider it if my OE fails in the next 12 months. $500? Sorry, that's just too much.

The fourth solution - continue to use the OE thermostats. I'm curious why you don't even acknowledge this as an option?


Go to the GDE website and you'll see actual numbers to back up their power/torque claims. These come from dyno testing are actual verified numbers and not just statements such as "improves power and torque". It took user concensus and time to convince me of the MPG gains but the ultimate decider was when my FCV failed and I needed the code cleared to pass emissions. The GDE tune became a no brainer at that point. As far as the Sasquatch intake is concerned it simply falls below the $$ threshold where many don't care.

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Share your ideas freely at https://www.facebook.com/groups/libertydiesels/

-The fuel savings in the HDS vs. Stock thermostat makes the HDS free before you've otherwise had to install 1 or 2 more stock ones.
-The combustion is more complete at proper temperatures. This is going to make your engine last longer, less soot... Put a price tag on that and I think you'll find that it's in the thousands.
-The parasitic drag (roughly .5 mpg) from the archaic mechanical fan that doesn't engage soon enough, over-cools the engine in the winter, makes maintenance a nightmare, and destroys the radiator when it fails (and believe me, that bearing is only good for 150k miles, and the assembly is what? $150?) $400 radiator, and the large hose ($100?), and maybe a power steering line, and radiator cooler line.... The hayden heavy duty also has a history of failing, and the fan blade has taken out many radiators by accident when the owner is taking it off for whatever reason.

If fuel gets more expensive, which it probably will, then the MPG gain is an even faster payback. I think the price is where it should be. If Jeff can sell enough of them, he might even get rewarded for sticking his neck out for everyone that owns a CRD. I personally hope he makes a million...

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05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,WW Ironrock trilink&LCA's, OX rear,ARB front, 4.10's, ARB bumper, Suncoast,OME 3.5, JBA UCA,rock rails, Moabs&265/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,FFD fan,ARP's, 2 micron fuel, new valves,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, tensioner relocated
Mech fan, VH & AC delete

I dont know about any MPG gains from from a thermostat. I sure as heck havent gained any.
Probably more beneficial for those who live in cold climates.

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U.S. Army Retired

I do not have access to a dynamometer... and ANYONE with a modicum of automotive knowledge knows that lab tests using a dyno are not very relevant in the real world; they only serve to give you the best figures under laboratory conditions. Mileage increases are affected by so many factors such as weather, state of tune, driving habits, condition of the vehicle/engine/driveline, etc., etc., etc., that dyno testing in a laboratory is practically useless. The facts are this... if the engine is running too cool, you are going to burn a lot of fuel. The factory service manual for the Liberty CRD states that the O.E. engine thermostat opens up at 176 degrees Fahrenheit. Ask ANY diesel technician and they WILL tell you that is too cold for a diesel engine for optimum operation.


...apart from the price. Granted, you have the best solution. At $100 I'd buy and install one tomorrow. Of course, I know it's worth much more than that. At $200 I'd certainly buy one when my current OE 'stat fails. At $300 I'd seriously consider it if my OE fails in the next 12 months. $500? Sorry, that's just too much.

The fourth solution - continue to use the OE thermostats. I'm curious why you don't even acknowledge this as an option?[/quote]

I repeat...The factory service manual for the Liberty CRD states that the O.E. engine thermostat opens up at 176 degrees Fahrenheit. Ask ANY diesel technician and they WILL tell you that is too cold for a diesel engine for optimum operation. The reason the O.E. thermostat is such a bad part is not only because it fails so often, but it not the correct temperature to begin with. One of the main reasons for so many reliability issues with the CRD engine is that running a diesel engine too cold IS BAD FOR IT. You have read my explanations regarding this in other threads, and the complaints from literally dozens of CRD owners all over North America; why would you ever consider continue to use O.E. thermostats when you KNOW they are not the correct temperature and they fail on a regular basis? You live in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. The best price you can ever get on an O.E. thermostat is $200.00 CDN. Add $100.00 CDN per install for labour, and you will have paid for your Model 001 within 2 O.E. thermostat changeouts.


Go to the GDE website and you'll see actual numbers to back up their power/torque claims. These come from dyno testing are actual verified numbers and not just statements such as "improves power and torque". It took user concensus and time to convince me of the MPG gains but the ultimate decider was when my FCV failed and I needed the code cleared to pass emissions. The GDE tune became a no brainer at that point. As far as the Sasquatch intake is concerned it simply falls below the $$ threshold where many don't care.[/quote]

You just proved my point that dyno testing is only a rough benchmark and practically useless, because you would not consider purchasing the GDE tune on that information alone... you had to wait until you heard from others about the performance gains and for your flow control valve to fail before you would buy. The dyno numbers in the GDE website are only there to give you an idea of what you can obtain with the tune packages. They are most certainly not hard numbers that Kieth is going to guarantee. All you have to do is read my customers' feedback on the following thread to know how successful my design is...

viewtopic.php?f=169&t=75791&start=540

dirtmover... the truth of the matter is you are too cheap to buy quality parts. You want me to sell it to you for $200.00 to $300.00, when my cost to manufacture is $360.00 CDN per unit, not including blasting, polishing, anodizing, laser etching, equipment or development costs. This is really laughable considering I am giving Canadians a break on the price.

You are correct flash7210, your mileage improvements would be minimal because you live in a warm environment.

What temperature thermostat valve are you running?

195 F

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U.S. Army Retired

That temperature is good, but not the best. Unless you are running in Death Valley with a load, a 203 degree valve would be better. Diesels need to be HOT in order to be efficient. As I mentioned in my thread, I used to run a Class 1 Mack Tri-drive tractor hauling 80,000 lb loads of pipe up to the Kearl Lake oilsands projects North of Fort MacMurray. Loaded, that engine was running an indicated 220 degrees; empty, about 212 degrees.

I looked in to getting a 205 F one but none of the local auto parts stores had one in stock.
Florida gets plenty hot in summer. I feel more comfortable with the 195.

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U.S. Army Retired

The Stant works.

the idea came up in 2011 - and a lot of folks have run them

I've got ~50K miles on them

with a couple of replacements - I check temp with a Scangauge and they seem to lose about 5 degrees a year.

last one was $7 from RockAuto - $3 shipping.

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2005 CRD
stuff
Skeptic quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

So how does high altitude effect cooling system performance?

Of course high altitude = lower air pressure = lower coolant boiling point. The 16 psi radiator cap should handle this no problem.
But lower air pressure = lower air density = less effective radiator. You would need more airflow across the radiator to make up for the loss of air density.

So should folks at higher altitudes run a lower temp thermostat in order the keep engine temp under control?

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U.S. Army Retired