Fixed - CRD just died...will not start....

taroo · **Joined:** Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:14 pm **Posts:** 291

taroo wrote:

ebbnflow wrote:

The CRD does not come from the factory with a lift pump. So add one inline or drop the tank and put in OEM or Carter. The intank pump is made for the Dodge Cummins but fits our tank.

HMmm..okay...your statement seems non sequitur to me. CRD does not come with a lift pump but you say to put in OEM (OEM being what?). By your statement I will assume the Carter intank has a built in lift pump even though it says OEM. Are you saying our CRD has nothing in the tank that pumps????

Ahhhh....okay. Just looked at Service Manual. The unit in the tank for our CRDs from the factory is just a sender. So, fuel is sucked out of the tank by the TB driven pump (CP3) by way of the fuel head/filter/heater. So...the Carter is a sender replacement WITH a lift pump built in.

Efren_Hinojosa · **Joined:** Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:29 pm **Posts:** 42

taroo wrote:

ebbnflow wrote:

The CRD does not come from the factory with a lift pump. So add one inline or drop the tank and put in OEM or Carter. The intank pump is made for the Dodge Cummins but fits our tank.

HMmm..okay...your statement seems non sequitur to me. CRD does not come with a lift pump but you say to put in OEM (OEM being what?). By your statement I will assume the Carter intank has a built in lift pump even though it says OEM. Are you saying our CRD has nothing in the tank that pumps????

That is true the crd does not have a pump in the tank. The injector pump sucks the fuel from the tank.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

jrsavoie · **Posted:** Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:02 am

taroo wrote:

jrsavoie wrote:

WWDiesel wrote:

A Lift pump would be a great addition, but in the meantime, clean the affected area with some carb or brake spray cleaner and then fill the area full with some RTV silicone and let it cure for at least 4 hours. Both items available at any auto parts store! This will stop any air ingestion at that location till you can get a new fuel head and possibly install a lift pump and get you back going.... :wink:

It might be close to the same time to install an AC Delco or GM lift pump from a 1993 GM 6.5 diesel. They sell Dorman and other hose barbs to screw into each end of the lift pump - same as the GM fuel filters that are about the same size,

If you go the 6.5 diesel lift pump route use a GM or AC Delco lift pump for a 1993 6.5 diesel. If they ask which vehicle. Just say 1993 C2500 6.5 diesel

I never had good performance or longevity out of the few aftermarket lift pumps of this style that I tried over the years.

I was told a long time ago that the 6.5 lift pump would be a good match. I just recently heard of possible pressure issues.

Can anybody confirm and further explain the possible over pressure issues?
the 6.5

This is a flow through on fail lift pump.

If you install a lift pump, make sure it is flow through on fail or you will definitely be stuck where you are if you have an issue with it.

Dorman has hose adapters for the lift pump.

Dorman 800-170 3/8" x 4" Steel Fuel Line Repair

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001EIXQ6C

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C9 ... detailpage

_____

Okay...I like it...Only one question. It has a PSI rating of 10 - 14 PSI. It is unclear to me what the max (if it matters) pressure rated lift pump we should use in the CRD. I read somewhere that 4-5 is the right pressure. Does 14 PSI matter? Will too much pressure matter or do any damage to the CP3 pump?

Thoughts on best pressure of thoughts on whether 14 PSI is too much???

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:36 am

There are many threads on this subject that go back 4 to 7 years.

At the very start of those threads, it was determined that 3.5 to 4.5 psi was all that was needed to eliminate the air pockets in the lines and not provide unnecessary pressure or cause damage to the high pressure fuel delivery system of the Bosch PS3, which provides an enormous amount of pressure to the common rail by sucking diesel fuel from the fuel head filter.

A low pressure lift pump is all that is needed to eliminate air pockets in the line.

An in tank fuel pump is a true pump that delivers a lot of pressure directly to the injectors or a carburetor, it is not meant to deliver high pressurized fuel to the PS3.

If you install a high pressure fuel pump such the one like the in tank pump you mention above, it will deliver unnecessary pressure to the system. It will deliver that high pressure to the Bosch PS3, something that the PS3 doesn't require.

Just find a low pressure, flow through lift pump to eliminate the air pockets in the lines and the system will run happily ever after without hiccups.

taroo · **Joined:** Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:14 pm **Posts:** 291

racertracer wrote:

There are many threads on this subject that go back 4 to 7 years.

At the very start of those threads, it was determined that 3.5 to 4.5 psi was all that was needed to eliminate the air pockets in the lines and not provide unnecessary pressure or cause damage to the high pressure fuel delivery system of the Bosch PS3, which provides an enormous amount of pressure to the common rail by sucking diesel fuel from the fuel head filter.

A low pressure lift pump is all that is needed to eliminate air pockets in the line.

An in tank fuel pump is a true pump that delivers a lot of pressure directly to the injectors or a carburetor, it is not meant to deliver high pressurized fuel to the PS3.

If you install a high pressure fuel pump such the one like the in tank pump you mention above, it will deliver unnecessary pressure to the system. It will deliver that high pressure to the Bosch PS3, something that the PS3 doesn't require.

Just find a low pressure, flow through lift pump to eliminate the air pockets in the lines and the system will run happily ever after without hiccups.

Just what my research this morning is telling me also. I am looking at the Kennedy or the AC/Delco both for the Duramax 6.5l. Both are flow through and both are lower PSI...I think. I found a thread talking about the existing wiring where they said:

In the power distrubition center under the hood it has fuse cavity f-17 labeled fuel prime pump and there is a relay (#38 ) labelled fuel prime pump. From the relay I traced the load side wire (brown with white tracer) to connector C-100 (behind the left kick panel) , there it changed to dark green with orange tracer. From there it goes to connector C-201 ( a black connector under the dash, just right of the steering column). It then changes to dark blue with orange tracer. Then it runs along the floor under the front left seat to under the left rear seat. If you pull the carpet up under the left rear seat you will find a light grey 10 pin connector. This is where the dark blue wire with orange tracer ends. I connected a voltmeter to this wire and with the key on It has 12 volts for approx. 15 seconds, and 12 volts all the time when running."

AC/Delco E3158 is the one recommended above...and least expensive.

rankom · **Posted:** Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:27 am

OEM pump RL143160AB is 14 psi works good (279 $)

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:57 am

The in tank fuel pump will not cause any problems to the CP3 injection pump as fuel feed pressure is controlled by the CP3 pump and any excess is returned to the tank via the return fuel line! While a very low pressure pump may suffice and prevent unwanted air induction into the fuel, the in-tank pump is by design what is used on Dodge Cummins diesels!
My 98 Dodge Cummins feed pump supplies ~14 psig pressure to the injection pump, basically the same pressure as the one I installed in my Jeep CRD. The Carter in-tank pump that I used is the same one designed and used for the later model Dodge Cummins diesels. So the Dodge engineers must have felt that the pressure was safe when they designed that system?

Dodge does not even sell or supply an externally mounted fuel feed pump anymore, and the retrofit replacement pump they sell through Mopar is now the in-tank feed pump that pumps 14 psig just as the one used by some in there Jeep CRD's. It is NOT a high pressure pump as used in gas models!

I also feel that the in-tank fuel pump is the cleanest installation using existing plumbing and requires no modifications other than the addition of two wires to the pump assembly from under the back seat connector. Anytime you cut fuel lines and add additional fittings, clamps, etc. there is a possibility of leak points in the fuel system.
Also having the additional feed pressure allowed me to add a secondary 2 micron fuel filter that further protects the CP3 pump and injectors...

information on the in-tank fuel pump and installation can be found on this forum in several threads; read all the information available and make a good decision.... :wink:

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=78950&hilit

pjigar · **Posted:** Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:16 pm

There is also another thread in the tech section for installing in-tank fuel pump: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=37868

I bought my in-tank fuel pump (CARTER P76148M) from eBay for $140 (now $127!).

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:49 pm

Check Rock Auto, $112.00

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:09 pm

Just to get it out there. The CP3 (a.k.a. fuel pump) located on the front of the engine "pulls" fuel from the tank and sends that fuel either to the fuel rail/injectors or dumps any excess back to the tank. As with any pump that "pulls" fuel from the tank it is possible for air to be "sucked" into the fuel lines. On the CRD the most common sources of such air are the 2 quick disconnect fittings on the fuel supply (not return) line back by the fuel tank and several places on the fuel filter head. If you have a 1st gen fuel filter head (black electrical plug on right when viewed from the front) it's very likely that your fuel filter element has burned out which can cause air in the fuel. In fact my personal opinion is that replacement of the 1st gen fuel filter head with the 2 gen one with the new heater element wiring pigtail is a critical preventive measure requirement (yes I know some like other fuel filter assemblies which is fine just get rid of the 1s gen OEM one). After that the cheapest air in fuel fix is to drop the tank and replace both quick disconnects, mentioned above, with marine grade diesel rated fuel line for ca. $10 including 4 clamps. An in tank or in line pump can also be installed to pressurize the system to keep air out if desired. However, I will note that I have a 2n gen fuel head and have not removed the quick disconnects and have no air in fuel problems nor does my son although we both have Facet in line pumps just in case. If you do install a pump be sure that it is a flow through type so that if the pump fails the CP3 can still pull fuel through the pump.

jrsavoie · **Posted:** Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:24 pm

I also have a toggle switch mounted under the hood of all my diesels to run the lift pump anytime I desire. It's great for purging air and sometimes helps with diagnostics

A pressure gauge can also be installed after the filter to give indications if your filter is starting to plug

taroo · **Joined:** Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:14 pm **Posts:** 291

papaindigo wrote:

Just to get it out there. The CP3 (a.k.a. fuel pump) located on the front of the engine "pulls" fuel from the tank and sends that fuel either to the fuel rail/injectors or dumps any excess back to the tank. As with any pump that "pulls" fuel from the tank it is possible for air to be "sucked" into the fuel lines. On the CRD the most common sources of such air are the 2 quick disconnect fittings on the fuel supply (not return) line back by the fuel tank and several places on the fuel filter head. If you have a 1st gen fuel filter head (black electrical plug on right when viewed from the front) it's very likely that your fuel filter element has burned out which can cause air in the fuel. In fact my personal opinion is that replacement of the 1st gen fuel filter head with the 2 gen one with the new heater element wiring pigtail is a critical preventive measure requirement (yes I know some like other fuel filter assemblies which is fine just get rid of the 1s gen OEM one). After that the cheapest air in fuel fix is to drop the tank and replace both quick disconnects, mentioned above, with marine grade diesel rated fuel line for ca. $10 including 4 clamps. An in tank or in line pump can also be installed to pressurize the system to keep air out if desired. However, I will note that I have a 2n gen fuel head and have not removed the quick disconnects and have no air in fuel problems nor does my son although we both have Facet in line pumps just in case. If you do install a pump be sure that it is a flow through type so that if the pump fails the CP3 can still pull fuel through the pump.

Okay...so....1) Going to Gen 2 Fuel head now that my Gen 1 failed 2) will go with in-tank Carter or Airtek and not an inline lift and 3) will remove the QDs and replace with diesel rated fuel line.

Last question - is the in tank pump (Carter) a flow-through-on-fail pump?

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:29 pm

taroo wrote:

Last question - is the in tank pump (Carter) a flow-through-on-fail pump?

That is my understanding. I too also have an after filter (primary & secondary) fuel pressure gauge to monitor fuel pressure. Mine consistently runs between 12-14 psig unless I get on it hard when it will drop to a little less than 10 psig.... And like Pap, I am still running the factory OEM push on hose connections as they are designed to seal in a pressurized fuel system and not in a suction from a pump system...
Mopar did us all a big disservice by using these type of hose connections and not installing an in-tank lift pump as they did in all Dodge Cummins since about 03.... :furious:

rankom · **Posted:** Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:16 pm

my advice , if you going to install in tank pump (AIRTEX , CARTER . OR OEM) do not touch quick connect plastic line , it won't leak and reason i say is its possible for marine grade fuel line to come undone because lose connections at sending unit at the tank ,

pjigar · **Posted:** Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:21 am

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Fixed - CRD just died...will not start....

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