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 Post subject: Additional fuel filtration
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:03 pm 
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I know several of us have talked about it, but has anyone actually added another fuel filter? I want to at some point, but I feel like an electric lift pump would be a good idea to go with it. Emailed Bosch about acceptable input pressure and flow to the pump and they never responded. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt though, I probably didn't get it to the right area of the company. Bosch is pretty big and diverse. I also haven't found a diesel injection shop that knows much about the common rail system. I have considered the possibility of setting up a system that would pull from the tank with an electric pump, then filter and dump back to the tank. I would leave the stock system alone and just filter it repeatedly before it ever got picked up. I realize the stock system would still be exposed to "unprefiltered" fuel immediately after a fillup, but if the system was high enough in flow, most fuel would get prefiltered at least once before getting sent to the injection system. It would not be my first choice, but it would eliminate the possibility of hurting the high pressure pump with incorrect pressure or flow. Anybody ever set up such a system? Is the idea halfbaked? Anybody know or have a source for input pressure and flow to the Bosch system?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:44 pm 
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The extra filter is not a bad idea. My thought was using a spin-on "primary" filter from a Detroit Diesel 2 filter set-up mounted to the lower frame somewhere close to the tank as a water trap. Primary filter is course, lets the small stuff through but gets the water & sludge stuff that cloggs the fine filter. That's just me, I always prefered a 2 filter layout for it's reliability. Probably won't do anything until this Fall as I like to change the filter just before Winter.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:49 pm 
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Unique idea but not really worth it. It takes such a small amount of contaminate to ruin this fuel system I don't think it's worth it. Yes, any extra filtering is a good thing but as you said "system would still be exposed to unprefiltered fuel after fueling." This pretty much negates the trouble of fabbing up something like this. It would be like putting a filter on the return side of the fuel system. I think two filters on this rig is a bit of overkill. The stocker is quite good-2micron I believe. You should be fine just changing at a regular interval. I guess I could see two filters if you have a history of recieving bad/contaminated fuel where you live and don't want to buy expensive oem filters.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:59 pm 
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I am considering adding a prefilter/water seperator to my CRD as well. What I want to know is...What happens if the stock filter was to get clogged or the pick up line blocked of or a line pinched etc. Does the current setup have some sort of system to detect this condition? If it does then we may not need to worry so much about hurting our pumps. So does anyone know?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:41 pm 
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onthehunt wrote:
Unique idea but not really worth it. It takes such a small amount of contaminate to ruin this fuel system I don't think it's worth it. Yes, any extra filtering is a good thing but as you said "system would still be exposed to unprefiltered fuel after fueling." This pretty much negates the trouble of fabbing up something like this. It would be like putting a filter on the return side of the fuel system. I think two filters on this rig is a bit of overkill. The stocker is quite good-2micron I believe. You should be fine just changing at a regular interval. I guess I could see two filters if you have a history of recieving bad/contaminated fuel where you live and don't want to buy expensive oem filters.


I don't have trouble around home, but I have had trouble with bad fuel when travelling in the past - especially off the beaten path. I'm picky about where I buy fuel, but when you're out your out. That is usually when I get bit.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:52 pm 
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Goglio704 wrote:
I don't have trouble around home, but I have had trouble with bad fuel when travelling in the past - especially off the beaten path. I'm picky about where I buy fuel, but when you're out your out. That is usually when I get bit.


I am right with you on that one. It is hard to stop at just a few select places. It would be nice to have a backup. Someone here has done it. Retmil46 maybe? Have you had any issues with yours?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:03 am 
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Jeger wrote:
I am considering adding a prefilter/water seperator to my CRD as well. What I want to know is...What happens if the stock filter was to get clogged or the pick up line blocked of or a line pinched etc. Does the current setup have some sort of system to detect this condition? If it does then we may not need to worry so much about hurting our pumps. So does anyone know?


What happens is the bloody engine just quits running as you're going down the road at 60 mph!!! :shock: :shock: Been there, done that, not just once but twice. Also has a tendency to cause a strange stain on the seat when this occurs. :oops:

It will throw a code, P0093 Contaminated Fuel, based on the difference of actual versus programmed fuel rail pressure. But from my experience, by the time it's clogged enough to throw this code, just shifting from Park to Drive is enough to kill the engine.

First indication that you're getiing a clogged/water soaked fuel filter is none other than the infamous tranny two step, the ye olde buck and jerk at certain speeds and throttle conditions.

Next stage of progression is you're cruising happily down the road steady state, and come upon an incline or other situation that calls for a moderate increase in engine speed/throttle. After a few seconds of this increased fuel demand, the engine sputters and flat out quits. You're able to restart and continue on your way, but find out that above a certain RPM the engine is starved for fuel and dies again.

The condition gets progressively worse, the RPM and load at which the engine will continue to run getting progressively lower, until even just putting it in drive is enough to kill the engine and finally throw a CEL.

The factory filter is 3 micron. When I was running with just this filter, every time I checked it, I never got any visible water out of it, even after several tanks. I believe RFCRD is correct, this is a wick type filter that absorbs the water instead of separating it out, and by the time it accumulates enough to give you the "Water in Fuel" warning light, it means it's chock full of water already, and you're already long since SOL and stranded at the side of the road.

I added a Permacool Fuel Filter/Water Separator, 2 micron, 24K miles, $50 for a kit, $12 for replacement filter, from JC Whitney. I added it in AHEAD of the factory filter in the engine compartment. I know that sounds backwards, but I'd rather replace a $12 filter first than the $40 factory one. I also mounted it where it's a 5 minute job to change it out, not the PITA evolution required for the factory filter.

Every time I've drained down the Permacool filter (old style petcock on the bottom), even after just one tank, I've ALWAYS gotten some amount of visible water out of it. Couple of times I also got gray/brown sludge along with the water, which indicated microbes, and I double dosed the tank with biocide for a while until this went away.

I just did a drain on the filter this morning. It'd been about 2 months, 4 tanks, since the last time I'd checked it. The last few days the beast had been trying to do the buck and jerk routine at different times when driving to work, which told me it was due. I drained out nearly 2 ounces of water and some visible chunkies. After repriming the system, it purred like a kitten on the way to work, not a hint of a stutter.

A $50 filter kit is cheap insurance compared to what a set of injectors and a fuel pump will cost you. This to remember as well - PROBLEMS DUE TO CONTAMINATED FUEL ARE NOT COVERED UNDER WARRANTY, YOU EAT THE COST OF REPAIRS!!!!!! In my case I was lucky, all that was required was a drain and flush of the fuel system, but even that ended up costing me $300, plus the cost of a full tank of fuel. If you're smart and save your receipts, you can recover the cost from your fuel supplier.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:06 am 
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How about posting a link to a web site that show the Fuel fitler set you used?

Cheers

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 Post subject: ha!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:58 am 
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Verrrrry interesting, retmil. When I had my melt-down, the mech at the dealer who threw me out said that the 0093 error code was due to a massive fuel leak, not contaminated fuel. Of course, this was also the same mech who was certain the throttle plate and injectors in the manifold were involved with the problem.

I hate to say it, but it is clearer now than it was even then that said dealer was right: I did need to find myself a wrench who knew more about these vehicles and biodiesel useage than they did.


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 Post subject: maybe this one?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:12 am 
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Wilmo wrote:
How about posting a link to a web site that show the Fuel fitler set you used?

Cheers


http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Search?catalogId=10108&storeId=10101&sku=permacool&searchbtn.x=0&searchbtn.y=0


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:23 am 
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Retmil,

Any detail on your install? Where did you install, how did you install, pics?

What are hi-pressure fuel lines on our jeeps?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:38 am 
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Retmil,

Also, for this diesel rookie, please include details about repriming the system and why it's necessary. I never had to with gas fuel filters.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:23 am 
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Zonie wrote:
Retmil,

Also, for this diesel rookie, please include details about repriming the system and why it's necessary. I never had to with gas fuel filters.


Because diesel fuel systems operate a very high pressure, air in the system causes them not to function properly. Air is compressible and doesn't allow for the positive displacement of fuel that a diesel requires. Imagine trying to drive a nail with a spring attached to the head. Hope this helps.

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05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:54 am 
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Depends if you are worried about contaminated fuel or fuel contamination after you have dieseled up. You could put a filter in the neck of your tank and prefilter your fuel...people used to do that in the past but it is messy and there is no place to store the filter after it has been used. I guess you could find a paper media funnel filter and throw them away each time. Seems the easiest thing to do is just change the stock filter on a regualr basis. I really don't want to add a filter inline to a CRD at the pressures it requires.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:15 pm 
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DarbyWalters wrote:
Depends if you are worried about contaminated fuel or fuel contamination after you have dieseled up. You could put a filter in the neck of your tank and prefilter your fuel...people used to do that in the past but it is messy and there is no place to store the filter after it has been used. I guess you could find a paper media funnel filter and throw them away each time. Seems the easiest thing to do is just change the stock filter on a regualr basis. I really don't want to add a filter inline to a CRD at the pressures it requires.

It's not a matter of filtering silt/solids but an issue of water contamination. To get water out you need a trap style filter (same as what you already have). The benefit of 2 filters is 2 chances to trap water. First one (primary) does the dirty work (catches the sludge/water) and the 2nd one get the fine particles. Redundent filters installed with the finer element 2nd decreases the probablilty of plugging from water contamination thus improving reliability. Your fuel in this part of the system is not under pressure, it's under suction/vaccume.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:17 am 
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I bought the Permacool set up also. Trying to find a place to mount it is the trick!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:29 am 
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To be honest, the reason I used the Permacool kit wasn't because of any research I did, but just because I had one on hand the second time I had problems. I had purchased this kit to put on a fuel injected gas vehicle my parents have, after trying one on a previous vehicle. After seeing what a fun evolution it was to change out the factory filter, not to mention draining it, I said "screw this noise, I don't want to be stuck trying to change this beast out at the side of the road", and added on the Permacool filter the same day.

Oldnavy has pics of the install on his jeep stuff webpage, along with pics of my Provent install. You can get the webpage address from him, or you can PM me with your e-mail address and I'll send them direct to you.

Due to the size of the filter, and lack of available space, I had to end up mounting the filter on it's side, tystrapped to the back of the battery. I used one huge tystrap I was able to get at work, about 1/2" wide and long enough to go completely around the battery, then two other tystraps around the filter, just tight enough to support the weight of the filter but still loose enough so I could work the filter out of them and hold it vertical for changeout and draining. The mounting head for the filter rests on the main wiring harness running behind the battery, which is supported by it's own metal brackets and covered in loom. The bottom end of the filter ended up next to the master cylinder and brake fluid reservoir, and I ended up putting a piece of foam rubber in between the filter and these parts.

The factory inlet and outlet hoses to the fuel filter are 3/8" ID, and the Permacool kit comes with 3/8" hose fittings for the filter head and 6 feet of 3/8" ID 200 psi fuel hose (IMHO better quality hose than what DC put on the vehicle!), so plumbing it into the fuel system was simple. I disconnected the rubber inlet hose coming from the fuel tank (the one closest to the engine) from the factory filter mounting head. I used a 3/8" hose splice fitting (double ended hose barb) to connect the inlet hose to a piece of the hose supplied in the kit, and then to the inlet of the Permacool filter. I used another piece of hose to connect the outlet of the Permacool filter to the inlet of the factory filter (where the factory line originally connected). Again I left enough extra length so that I could hold the filter vertical and move it around for changeout and draining.

For draining, I pull the filter out of the tystraps and hold it vertical with a plastic bowl underneath. I open up the petcock on the bottom (you can hear it sucking in air as the fuel in the inlet line drains back to the tank), and unscrew it from the mounting head just enough to break the seal and speed up draining. When finished, I retighten the filter to the mounting head and close the drain valve.

For repriming, I keep the filter sitting vertical to get all the air out. I open up the bleed screw on the factory filter head, and hold a small jar along with a paper towel underneath it. Then I operate the priming pump until I start getting fuel out of the bleed screw, and keep going until I get an ounce or two out to ensure all the air is gone, then close the bleed screw. With the bleed screw closed tight, I give the priming pump another 10 to 15 pumps to see that it's building up pressure and that everything is tight and ensure a good prime. Then I put the Permacool filter back in it's usual position.

The fuel I vent from the bleed screw I pour straight back into the tank. The fuel I drain from the Permacool filter I'll let sit for a while, to let all the water and crud settle to the bottom, then pour as much as I dare off the top into another container, then put it back in the tank as well.

Just for the purposes of having a coarse prefilter and a second water separator in the line, checking around would probably turn up a unit that is smaller, could be mounted vertically full time, and more suited to our needs. I did a quick check of the Caterpillar website a while back, and they did have 10 micron prefilters with a clear plastic drain bowl on the bottom, looked considerably smaller than the Permacool as well. Something from West Marine or another marine hardware store might work as well, a considerable number of diesel powered boats out there, and if it meets Coast Guard specs for marine use it should be more than adequate for automotive use.

The entire supply side of our fuel system operates at a vacuum up to the fuel pump at the front of the engine. The low pressure side of the fuel pump has to suck fuel from the tank, up to and thru the filter, and then up to itself before it can supply anything to the high pressure side of the pump. Any air leaks before the fuel gets to the pump, and everything comes to a stop. Our fuel system literally does suck (IMHO in more ways than one!). An air leak in the supply line could cause the ECM to throw the same P0093 code as a clogged fuel filter. From what someone posted a few months back, it throws this code when actual fuel rail pressure is a certain percentage below what the ECM says it should be for given conditions. So it wouldn't matter if it's due to an air leak or a clogged filter, if the pump can't get enough fuel to develop sufficient pressure in the rail, the computer will throw the same code, and the engine will give you the same results (I don't wanna run today!).

I've had thoughts about adding a booster pump as well. A small 12V centrifugal pump, such that you wouldn't have to worry about recircing fuel back to the tank, with just enough oomph to give 1 or 2 psi positive pressure at the inlet to the factory pump. You'd need to check what the flow rate is for the factory pump first, ie how fast it sucks fuel out of the tank, to ensure you put in a booster with large enough flow rate and not create a flow restriction instead of a flow aid! For a positive displacement booster pump, you'd need a pressure regulator to ensure you didn't overpressurize and rupture a fuel line, and for a recirc line it might be possible to splice into the vent hose at the fuel fill connection. The fuel supply and return lines have quick connect fittings under the vehicle just in front of the fuel tank. Most auto parts stores sell replacement quick connect fittings and lines/hoses, it should be possible to splice into the system at this point and still have the ability to to return everything to bone stock if needed.

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'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:41 am 
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Might want to check out this link, has some interesting points regarding fuel filtration and adding a fuel lift/booster pump.

http://www.thedieselpage.com/reviews/megafilter.htm

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'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:09 pm 
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retmil46 wrote:
Might want to check out this link, has some interesting points regarding fuel filtration and adding a fuel lift/booster pump.

http://www.thedieselpage.com/reviews/megafilter.htm


Good link, thanks.

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05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:54 pm 
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Goglio704 wrote:
retmil46 wrote:
Might want to check out this link, has some interesting points regarding fuel filtration and adding a fuel lift/booster pump.

http://www.thedieselpage.com/reviews/megafilter.htm


Good link, thanks.


If you read on down the info on air entrapment in a suction application is interesting to say the least. The article just throws fuel on the fire for me. Pardon the pun. The Kennedy diesel site has a centrifugal fuel pump which they say offers low resistance to flow in the event it fails. That would be important in a CRD application. The Duramax uses a common rail setup from Bosch like our CRD doesn't it?

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05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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