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 Post subject: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:57 pm 
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Just got serious about replacing the turbocharger and timing belt. Ordered a new Turbocharger from TurboChargerPros.com. I searched this site for comments about aftermarket turbos and found no negative comments regarding TurboChargerPro.com. The other manufacturers or re-manufacturers did get negative comments.

Also requested some information about the 100,000 mile timing belt service kit from IDParts.com. I want to get the kit but don't need the water pump nor belt tensioner included.

I'll keep this posting updated on my progress.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:03 am 
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Why would you not want to change the tensioner while you have it apart?

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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:47 am 
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Scar0,

I was just looking at the tensioner and it seems to be a spring load tensioner. I was expecting an oil pressure driven tensioner.

I can no longer defend my original thought of not replacing it. Thanks for calling this to my attention.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:47 am 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
Unless you intend to sell the vehicle shortly, I recommend doing the water pump as well.
It may not be presently leaking or causing other problems, however it is part of the timing belt system along with the tensioner and idler pulleys.
While the pulleys and water pump sprockets themselves aren't prone to rapid wear, they all have bearings that do wear out, and in the water pump case, it has leverage applied to bearing and seals.
As this is something that 1) is something you don't want to do more often than necessary, and 2) can cause catastrophic damage upon failure, It seemed best to me, to have them all addressed as a set. The kit from IDParts.com is a pretty well thought out set.

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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:41 pm 
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If you are going to take the time and energy to replace a timing belt, one should replace the water pump, belt tensioner & pulley, and idler pulleys as well. :roll:
If either one of these were to fail for any reason, it could and most likely will cause catastrophic ($$) damage to the engine. :grim:

It is simply not worth the risk to save a few dollars.... :wink:

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:08 am 
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After adding up the individual parts for the timing belt project, I found that the entire kit price is like getting the water pump for half price. So, I ordered the entire kit.

Thanks for the coaxing everyone.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:28 am 
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In my preparations for the timing belt change, I am starting to look for a set of cam locking pins, flywheel locking pin, and a timing sprocket holder.

Are there places to get these cheap, understanding that I will only use them once? I've seen the flywheel pins (2) on the Internet for as low as $35. Do drill bits, or drill blanks work just as well?

I did see a picture of a hinged set of cam gear holding mechanism to hold while breaking the bolts loose. I didn't see where to buy this device. (It does look simple enough to build.)

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:07 pm 
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CaptainDean wrote:
In my preparations for the timing belt change, I am starting to look for a set of cam locking pins, flywheel locking pin, and a timing sprocket holder.
Are there places to get these cheap, understanding that I will only use them once? I've seen the flywheel pins (2) on the Internet for as low as $35. Do drill bits, or drill blanks work just as well?
I did see a picture of a hinged set of cam gear holding mechanism to hold while breaking the bolts loose. I didn't see where to buy this device. (It does look simple enough to build.)
Dean.

Sasquatch Parts sells and rents the tools!
See this:> https://shop.sasquatchparts.com/product ... -cam-tool/

IDParts also sells the tools:> https://www.idparts.com/timing-belt-too ... -6235.html

There are also some Sealey kits available on eBay from England:>
(will still require an additional sprocket holding device)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrysler-Timing ... SwmmxW6o~K

Image

:SOMBRERO:

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:29 am 
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Thanks WWDiesel,

I think the best solution for me is the IDParts kit for $135, then re-sell it here, or on on eBay. The same kit could co-op through CRD owners for the rest of eternity.

The Turbo arrived today!! I'll change it out on Sunday after Saturday's IronMan Triathalon race and the home brewers' meeting.

One of the guys here said he did the Turbo job in 3 hours. Barring additional bad findings, I should be able to get through it in one day.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:36 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:22 am
Posts: 693
Ordered the Timing Belt Took Kit from IDParts.com

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:15 pm 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Thanks WWDiesel,
I think the best solution for me is the IDParts kit for $135, then re-sell it here, or on on eBay. The same kit could co-op through CRD owners for the rest of eternity.
The Turbo arrived today!! I'll change it out on Sunday after Saturday's IronMan Triathalon race and the home brewers' meeting.
One of the guys here said he did the Turbo job in 3 hours. Barring additional bad findings, I should be able to get through it in one day.
Dean.

A word of caution or advice!
Several members on LOST who have replaced turbos suggest replacing the turbo mounting bolts and / or studs to a better quality bolt or stud.
The consensus is the OEM bolts and studs are of poor quality and are subject to breakage or stripping. :roll:
Most hardware stores carry metric bolts and studs.
Sizes are: 6x1.00 mm and 8x1.25 mm in lengths to match OEM's.
Be sure and start soaking everything real good in PB Blaster 24 hours or more before disassembly! :wink:

Best of luck....

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount

98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve


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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:13 pm 
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One post stated that replacing the bolts with studs made the job harder. Apparently more difficult to get the turbo into place? Since I haven't done this job yet (on this vehicle), I don't know the orientation of the turbo. Does it hang from the mounting bolts?

I like studs for strong mounting because the threads in the exhaust manifold don't get the wear, only the [replaceable] stud.

The last two turbos I replaced were a marine Volvo Penta and a Dodge Ram Cummins 5.9. They were both mounted atop the exhaust manifold; thus, gravity assisting the install.

If I'm understanding this installation, I may have to set the turbo atop the exhaust pipe, then jack the pipe (and turbo) up into place. Sounds like I may be spending as much time under the vehicle as on top.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:53 am 
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The turbo mounting flange meets with the exhaust manifold flange vertically, as in the exhaust is flowing horizontal to gravity as it flows from the manifold to the turbine housing.
There are 4 bolt/stud fasteners.
I believe the post you referred to was regarding one of my tips.

After fighting an entire morning trying to get the oil drain tube fastened to the bottom of the turbo, I just found it more difficult than I had patience for, to try and get a tiny bolt, in the end of a deep socket, mounted to a long extension with a wobbly drive (because there is not straight on possibility) to go through the drain tube flange, AND the hole in the gasket AND get the thing to find the hole AND thread in.

I finally took the turbo back off, put metric hardened studs in (don't remember the length but about twice as long as the bolts were).
Before putting the turbo back on, I tacked the gasket in place, then the oil drain tube, and the nuts, but left the nuts loose. I Lowered the turbo in from the top, and slid the drain tube into the seal/gasket in the block, and put the turbo back in place. Since the nuts were already started on, (and the gasket was tacked down with sealer) it was a cinch to get the socket on the nuts, and seal it up.

If you put the lower end of the drain tube in the block while droppin the turbo in, it works great. If you try to put the lower end of the drain tube in the block after fastening the turbo tight to the manifold it won't. (with studs)
If you try to put the lower end of the drain tube in the block before fastening the turbo tight to the manifold it might work, but I don't know. I didn't try it that way. Plus there would still be the issue of getting nuts started on the studs in a stupidly tight area.

Someone else tried it without putting the nuts on the drain tube at the turbo, and had problems and went back to using the bolts.


Regarding your quandary about whether to buy a full component set vs replacing the parts that have worn out, I found this in one of my very ancient commercial vehicle repair books:

The best way to prevent costly system failure is to start inspecting the accessory, cooling and timing systems at 60K miles and replacing worn components by 90K miles, or as advised by the manufacturer. All parts in a system are engineered to work in concert and wear at about the same rate. When components wear, they put the entire system at risk. Replacing only the belt can potentially cause the entire system to fail. The best long-term investment is to work with complete system repairs. Combine belts and tensioners, idlers, water pumps and hoses, and use timing component kits to ensure optimal vehicle function!

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:01 am 
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CaptainDean wrote:
One post stated that replacing the bolts with studs made the job harder. Apparently more difficult to get the turbo into place? Since I haven't done this job yet (on this vehicle), I don't know the orientation of the turbo. Does it hang from the mounting bolts?
I like studs for strong mounting because the threads in the exhaust manifold don't get the wear, only the [replaceable] stud.
The last two turbos I replaced were a marine Volvo Penta and a Dodge Ram Cummins 5.9. They were both mounted atop the exhaust manifold; thus, gravity assisting the install.
If I'm understanding this installation, I may have to set the turbo atop the exhaust pipe, then jack the pipe (and turbo) up into place. Sounds like I may be spending as much time under the vehicle as on top.

The turbo bolts to the side of the exhaust manifold. This is where studs (item 1 on the 1st diagram) would be a plus!
Exhaust Manifold to Turbo Studs (3 required)
Items 3, 7, & 8 on 2nd diagram should all be replaced with new gaskets/parts.
Most report the oil drain line being one of the more aggravating things to wrestle with... :roll:
Item 6 on 2nd diagram is where Gordon is saying add 6mm studs in place of the bolts! :wink:

Image [/url]Image

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
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GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount

98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve


Last edited by WWDiesel on Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:58 am 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
WWDiesel wrote:
Exhaust Manifold to Turbo Studs (3 required)


Items 3, 7, & 8 on 2nd diagram should all be replaced with new gaskets/parts.
Most report the oil drain line being one of the more aggravating things to wrestle with... :roll:
Item 6 on 2nd diagram is where Gordon is saying add 6mm studs in place of the bolts! :wink:

Exhaust to turbo gasket...(actual image) What was that about 3 studs? My 06 has 4.
Image

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:52 am 
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Thank you both GordnadoCRD and WWDiesel,

You both are very precise about your explanations, that helps a lot.

WWDiesel: Thanks for the exhaust manifold/turbocharger assembly drawing. That spelled out a lot. I will purchase the studs on Saturday morning in preparation for a Sunday turbo swap-out session. I'll change the timing belt out a week or two later. (Yes, I know I'm driving on borrowed time, and counting on my 95,000 miles rolling into a 100,000 mile service.)

GordnadoCDR: 3 or 4 bolts/studs... I have a 2005 so apparently I will find 3 fasteners. ("Oops" about beginning this string in the wrong area) :oops: (Sizes: 6x1.00 mm and 8x1.25 mm in lengths to match OEM's)

The Volvo Penta I worked on had an oil return line that connected to a rubber hose at the block. I used to have to get that connected before securing the middle section of the turbo. The Dodge Cummins 5.9 had an aftermarket flexible hose. Thanks for the clues in assembling the turbo and drain connection. Sounds like I won't have any excuse to take longer than 4 hours.

Regarding changing out the entire system, I don't have any defense for changing only the belt, and not the other parts. It is good to see the excerpt about engine components being designed to wear evenly. The Engineers have truly been tuning their craft.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:15 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
Exhaust Manifold to Turbo Studs (3 required)

Exhaust to turbo gasket...(actual image) What was that about 3 studs? My 06 has 4.

That is really strange!!! :shock: :dizzy:
All the Mopar online sites list 3 studs/nuts for both 05 and 06.
https://www.moparpartsgiant.com/parts-l ... dition+4WD)&Diagram=i2119510&PartNumbers=5142801AA

Exhaust Manifold to Turbo Studs (3 required) - 05142801AA
Exhaust Manifold to Turbo Nuts (3 required) 05142578AA
Exhaust Manifold to Head Studs (9 required) - 05066796AA
Exhaust Manifold to Head Nuts (9 required) 05142578AA

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Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
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Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
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98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve


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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:26 pm 
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CaptainDean wrote:
Regarding changing out the entire system, I don't have any defense for changing only the belt, and not the other parts. It is good to see the excerpt about engine components being designed to wear evenly. The Engineers have truly been tuning their craft.

Dean.

This is from Goodyear Gatorback timing belt info @ Rockauto.com

Gatorback™ Timing Belts

Precision Molded Teeth: Synthetic polymers provide the height strength, shear resistance and environmental resistance needed to assure long dependable life.
Tooth Facing Fabric: The sprocket side of the timing belt has specially woven fabric that has been chemically treated to reduce friction and provide outstanding resistance to abrasion and heat.

Tensil Cord: Cord is dimensionally stable treated fiberglass, that resists shrinking and elongation.

Oil Resistant Backing: Polymers provide exceptional heat, abrasion and ozone resistance to protect the timing belt throughout desired service life.

It is recommended that all timing-related components be replaced at the same time (the life-span of your new Timing belt can also be reduced by as much as 50% if the components aren't replaced).

Why You Should Never Put Off Timing Belt Replacement:

https://youtu.be/WvF08aRCfic

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:19 pm 
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I'm in the middle of it, and now I'm a LOST Jeep person. Opened the hood at 8 AM and have finally extracted the turbo at noon. This job would be much easier with the vehicle on a lift. Being able to stand or sit upright underneath the beast would make me feel human. Sliding around between the underbelly and the ground is the pits.

However, the OLD TURBO IS GOOD. It's a nice Garret, probably better than the TurboChargerPros turbo I purchased.

So here is the quandary: I was suspecting to pull out a turbo with the parts rattling around inside. That would account for the rattly-clanky sounds I hear from under the hood. With the old turbo solid, what else could be causing these noises? The exhaust pipe is secure and solid.

I do get a lot of black smoke when stepping on the accelerator, which would match a bad turbo. Also I get the P0299 [Under boost] fault code.

One thing I've found is soot underneath the heat shields over the exhaust manifold. Not sure what to think about that.

My next path is to trace examine the boost path (hose, intercooler, hose).

How do I test the intercooler? I was planning to vacuum air backwards through the unit.

Dean.

_________________
2005 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD 248
Kona, Hawaii (Big Island) USA

Changed Turbo.
100,000-mile service.
Replaced harmonic balancer.
Noise in front axle or 3rd member - removed loose chain in transfer case.
Rebuilt engine - replaced #3 cylinder, piston, valves, head repair. Removed EGR.
Sheared bolts on TC. Replaced flex plate, TC, bolts.


Last edited by CaptainDean on Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Timing belt and Turbo change-out
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:20 pm 
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Rattling-clanking could be a number of things, and not hearing it causes the "possibles" scope to widen a bit, as they all can possibly fit the category of rattle-clank, but have their own peculiar sound to an experienced ear.

Engine Related:
Something could be sucked against the engine driven radiator fan.
A frayed belt could be hitting something as it goes around.
Worn out belt tensioner (either belt) or idler(s) (either belt).
Loose EGR coolant return crossover tube.
One or both of the steel exhaust manifold heat shields could be loose.
Loose exhaust pipe clamp @ Catalytic converter/muffler. (or one of the hangars @ rear crossmember)
Failed motor mounts allowing excess vibration and/or transmission dipstick tube vibrating against coolant bottle or engine cover.
Broken cam followers, but usually there are worse symptoms than just noise.
Broken starter bendix spring allowing occasional contact with ring gear.
Broken / backed out Torque Converter bolt(s), pinging around in the bell housing.
One of the myriad things held to the periphery of the engine bay by studs / nuts / bolts being loose.

I'm sure I've forgotten things, if others would pitch in...


EDIT The soot buildup at the exhaust outlet is likely not a BIG worry unless you can smell it inside. It is most likely from the exhaust flow restriction from the Catalytic converter, muffler, and everything in between. any bit of pressure causes some exhaust to leak, and the soot will build up over time.

Your Charge Air Cooler can be cleaned and tested at a good radiator shop in the same way they would do a radiator. If there is a bit of engine oil in it, that's normal. If it's fairly FULL, that's not.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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