2005 CDR Dropped Valve

akosar · **Joined:** Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:39 pm **Posts:** 3

My son's 2005 Liberty CRD dropped a valve on his way through Ellensburg Washington.

The failure occurred when he was climbing a hill and noticed the temperature gauge rising. He pulled over at the next off ramp and at this point the engine lost power and stalled. He let it cool for a bit and checked the engine compartment before attempting to restart it. When it wouldn't start he had it towed to the local dealership. This was on a Saturday night. The dealership wasn't able to get it in until Wednesday.

On Wednesday the "stealership" got stuck unable to remove the 2nd fuel injector and reported that the only option was to replace the engine. They went on to say they could not source a replacement engine and that they had no other options for him. After a fight over the bill, he retrieved his Libby and loaded it on a Uhaul. He brought it home to Phoenix Arizona. Both He and I are experienced with the care and feeding of our CRDs and have each done the timing belt/water pump service on our own CRDs and I have helped others do theirs. I am a hobby/backyard mechanic at best. So with nothing to lose, the Libby made its way to my workshop and we proceeded to complete the diagnostic disassembly.

Upon disassembly we found all rocker arms intact and to the best of our ability they all look good for 195k miles. We expected to find a broken rocker based on others experience. Looking further we noticed one valve spring higher than the others and upon removing the head we confirmed our fear. One of the exhaust valves heads on the 2nd cylinder was broken off and had damaged the center of the piston and the cylinder head. I am sorry I don't have an account on one of the image hosting sites otherwise I would post pictures.

I searched this site but did not find any information on others experience or success in getting a head rebuilt so I thought I would post this to ask for advice on repairing his Libby. It appears that there are a few used heads available at auto wreckers. ID parts has replacement piston and liners. They also have factory and reman heads listed on their site but they are fairly spendy.

Specific questions:

1) Should we attempt to have the head repaired? If so any recommendations on where to get it done? Would a local automotive machine shop be up to the task?

2) the cylinder liner was not harmed... would you replace the liner and the piston or just the piston?

3) replacing one piston would it be advisable to replace the rings in the others?

4) other recommendations...? My son is planning on keeping his liberty for some time to come and although he is very very short on funds (just finished college and new baby in the house) he would like to do the job right.

PS this board is amazing... sorry to drop this as my first post. I will be following up by posting on the valve failure research thread shortly.
PS PS, I have read Sam's CRD Noob guide... awesome guidance!

Thanks!!!

rankom · **Posted:** Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:38 pm

sorry to hear that happened to your sons CRD we have specific thread about this valve quality . as for repairing it , my advice for your son , keep the money in the pocket take care of newborn and go on with life , leave this crd in the bak yard for now ,

Mountainman · **Posted:** Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:50 pm

It's less technical and requires less special tools if you leave the old liner in place. You want to find a reasonably low mile used piston with its used rings as the new ones are a different weight, and the old rings unavailable. The head is most likely garbage, but people do repair minor cracks and other minor damages.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:59 pm

The damage to the head is not repairable. You will need to find a replacement.
You will definitely need one replacement piston.
You will likely need one replacement injector also.

The problem with rings is, the design of the pistons and rings was changed. New rings for your old pistons are not available. If you want all new rings you will need all new pistons.

Once you pull the motor and begin the tear down, carefully inspect the liner for scuffing and cracks.

You might be able to find some good used parts on eBay.
Many of us have been getting good used parts from VMspecialists in England and at very good prices. But dealing with a small company in the UK requires a lot of patience and understanding.

This repair will be quite extensive and not cheap and will truly test your dedication and love toward the CRD.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:37 pm

Yes the rings are different but the pistons are NOT weighted differently. The rods however are balanced as a set, but you are likely not doing anything with those.

You can get a single piston and rings from IDparts and only need to install that, if the sleeve is not damaged then it can be left alone.

The VM Specialist (google) sells VM engine parts from the UK, and heads can be sourced from them for about $400 shipped. I would still strongly advise replacing all valves in that when it arrives, and have it pressure tested for peace of mind.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:49 pm

Basically you need a piston with rings, a new head, maybe a set of rockers, timing belt kit, and I wasn't sure if you said all the injectors are good.

At this point you almost need a new used engine, might cost more than all the parts, but its less risk and time to get the jeep running on the road again.

rancherman · **Posted:** Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:24 am

geordi wrote:

Yes the rings are different but the pistons are NOT weighted differently. The rods however are balanced as a set, but you are likely not doing anything with those.

You can get a single piston and rings from IDparts and only need to install that, if the sleeve is not damaged then it can be left alone.

The VM Specialist (google) sells VM engine parts from the UK, and heads can be sourced from them for about $400 shipped. I would still strongly advise replacing all valves in that when it arrives, and have it pressure tested for peace of mind.

speaking of rods, you (op) should at least check that rod for abuse. Straightness or lack of..
If it was bent even the slightest, the piston will be 'cocked' slightly in the bore, and could burnish the liner. Just some fun stuff to check as you go!

akosar · **Joined:** Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:39 pm **Posts:** 3

Wow, Thank-you for your posts... I am pouring all of your advice into my son as he continues to navigate his decisions. He is not considering setting his jeep aside for now although it is a not bad suggestion especially given how warm it is here in Arizona right now! What he is considering is getting a "burner vehicle" as he puts it (<$1000) to get him by while he takes his time on the Jeep. I have offered the loan of my vehicle for a few weeks also.

An update on where he is at; The damage on his head is; two significant strike marks between the valves (that would need to be welded, no cracks visible... just needs to be filled?) and the valve seat cracked on the port that the valve broke (likely needs welding too before a new seat could be installed). He has an appointment with a automotive machine shop this morning to get their opinion on it. I have had less damage repaired on a gasser before (ironically on a ford 2.3 when I was around his age) however I don't have any experience with a diesel. He has also since received an offer of a tested and resurfaced head that he has to consider in the mix.

He is searching for a piston and rings; he is considering the recommendation of looking for a used one (mountainman) along with a new one per geordi's post. I suspect he will also likely need an injector however it does not appear damaged. He is looking for a local place to have the injectors serviced/checked. The glow plug was damaged... should he replace all 4 or can he just replace 1? recommendations?

Thanks again!!!

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:08 pm

Glow plugs are cheap(relative), replace all 4 with new bosch 5V plugs.

Consider finding a complete running engine to swap in, and then sell off some parts from his old engine to offset the costs, a used injector is worth ~$200, turbo ~$200, cams, etc etc, maybe enough that you can come out ahead of trying to replace parts and spend a bunch on gaskets and seals that you wouldn't spend when just timing a timing belt on an engine and swapping it in.

search car-part.com for engines, craigslist, etc.

There is one with a HARD burn in WI for $1200, if the longblock was good and you could move everything over form your short block that might be a good option. they might make a deal considering how burned it is.

Otherwise $330 for a piston, $1800 for a head, $400 for a timing belt kit might have you running.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:58 pm

I you decide to get a head from vm specialists it costs less than $100 US actually British sterling$ 64 for them to replace the exhaust valves with factory new ones and the same for the intake valves but takes an extra 10 days or so for them to order the new valves from VM Matori directly. I would definitely replace rockers and you can get them there also also take about two weeks for shipping so if they do valves 3 to 4 weeks to get head with new valves installed. I will have a used head but won't be till thanksgiving time or so most likely when my son comes home from school he wanted to change all valves etc and rockers and put ARPs in his when we do TB job it will have about 183K by then. A used engine would probably be much quicker but i would feel like I had to put new valves and maybe machine head and definitely replace all valves and rockersand ARPs as well as a weeks type mod to the used engine before putting it in which would also drive price higher. You are likely looking at 30 to 40 hours of actual work time to invest if you repair yours but a great learning experience and most likely very frustrating at times.

Personally I could never trust a repaired crack in a head for these crds.

To check injectors I would look for a bosch certified shop in your area but if looks ok most likely it is.

I agree with the metal 5 volt glow plugs for about $100.

I would estimate head with new valves, new rocker/ lifters, gasket kit, glow plugs, ARPs would run about $1400 with good sourcing plus whatever you spend for piston/rings or injector and all your time. I probably have a decent injector around.

You may want to contact racetracer about how much trouble and time he went through but he replaced at least some liners also.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:19 pm

Heads can be had from the UK for ~$400 shipped from the VM Specialist. I would NOT have the valves done by them, sorry but I'm suspicious and they are engine breakers so they have LOTS of parts laying around and I'd like to verify that the most critical parts are in fact fresh from a package. IDparts.com has all the valves in stock and ready to ship to you. Same for the rockers. Every install should have ARP studs, and an EGR delete.

The head is not supposed to be milled. On the glow plugs: I would replace them all. If the tip is straight all the way to the end and not tapered about 3/8" from the end, then they are the original ceramic and MUST be replaced.

k9adv · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:08 am

The Bosch 5V set of 4 glow plugs are available for $50 shipped from Green Spark Plug in the UK. I got mine here in the US in only a week.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:01 am

Rancherman has a good point. I go a step further and throw the rod in the trash along with the smashed piston. I've seen these rods bend slightly, and up to 90*, and other times they break. A slight bend is hard to detect, and not worth starting the whole nightmare over again IMO.
If you don't resurface the heads like I do, you better at least check them for flatness with proper tooling, otherwise you're asking for a cracked head. I get the UK heads resurfaced AND tested. Too much work to redo!
Just my :2cents:

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:46 pm

Keep in mind when you resurface these heads, you may lose a very thin nickel coating that was OEM applied by the factory to the mating surface.
I just recently learned of this special coating which makes this engine head quite unique compared to most others. :roll:

After having worked at a automotive machine and speed shop, I have always been under the impression that any head could be machined, but this one is a little different! :shock:

rankom · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:47 pm

yes like ww said , these heads are special ,when i send mine to machine shop for cleaning and inspection , they just replaced valve seals and give good bath , they did pressure test it and that it . btw this was done in 2014

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:23 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

Keep in mind when you resurface these heads, you may lose a very thin nickel coating that was OEM applied by the factory to the mating surface.
I just recently learned of this special coating which makes this engine head quite unique compared to most others. :roll:

After having worked at a automotive machine and speed shop, I have always been under the impression that any head could be machined, but this one is a little different! :shock:

That's interesting for sure, and I don't claim to know half what you know WW. But, removing any coating would just make them equal to a VW aluminum head or Subaru, and ARP's have been proven to keep the seal on the VW's anyhow (and tty bolts for that matter). And repeated runs at 4,000 rpm's has left my HG seal solid after 30k miles. I'm pretty sure the fellow with the high power CRD (makes the ball bearing turbos) had his head resurfaced, and I haven't heard him having trouble.
In addition to that, heads tend to warp a bit, which leads to cracks if clamped strait with heat and pressure, and the fire ring indentation on a used head is WAY out of factory spec for smoothness. I think we will see many failures of HG's in the long term (100-200k) because the micro pathways that gases and coolant can follow. Geordi's solution of spray gasket may just stop this slow break down of the seal, but I just go for a new factory like seal because that's how I was taught by the gasket manufacturers. Well over a dozen of my resurfaced heads out there, no complaints yet.
FWIW

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:53 am

Most manufacturers of MLS gaskets (i.e. Cometic) specify a smoothness factor for the head and block. Basically, anything less than perfect isn’t good enough.
They also say not to use any sealers with it.
Coppercoat and others are a way of working around that smoothness factor.

The problem with machining the head is that the valve seats are almost flush with the head surface. You don’t want to cut into seats.
I think 3-5 thousandth is safe but a machine shop would know best.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:39 am

Mountainman wrote:

WWDiesel wrote:

Keep in mind when you resurface these heads, you may lose a very thin nickel coating that was OEM applied by the factory to the mating surface.
I just recently learned of this special coating which makes this engine head quite unique compared to most others. :roll:

After having worked at a automotive machine and speed shop, I have always been under the impression that any head could be machined, but this one is a little different! :shock:

That's interesting for sure, and I don't claim to know half what you know WW. But, removing any coating would just make them equal to a VW aluminum head or Subaru, and ARP's have been proven to keep the seal on the VW's anyhow (and tty bolts for that matter). And repeated runs at 4,000 rpm's has left my HG seal solid after 30k miles. I'm pretty sure the fellow with the high power CRD (makes the ball bearing turbos) had his head resurfaced, and I haven't heard him having trouble.
In addition to that, heads tend to warp a bit, which leads to cracks if clamped strait with heat and pressure, and the fire ring indentation on a used head is WAY out of factory spec for smoothness. I think we will see many failures of HG's in the long term (100-200k) because the micro pathways that gases and coolant can follow. Geordi's solution of spray gasket may just stop this slow break down of the seal, but I just go for a new factory like seal because that's how I was taught by the gasket manufacturers. Well over a dozen of my resurfaced heads out there, no complaints yet.
FWIW

Just FYI: Did not say it could not be resurfaced, but to just be aware that the factory puts some kind of very thin nickel coating on it! Machining most likely mills it off?
Have no idea what if any long term consequences of those actions may or maynot entail. :ALONE:

From reading, it appears it was done to enhance thermal efficiency? :roll:

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:47 am

I got that, sorry if my rambling sounded defensive, dang cyber- communication anyhow. I needed to add some

and

2005 CDR Dropped Valve

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