Liberty CRD Hard to Start When Cold

jagster936 · **Joined:** Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:06 pm **Posts:** 212

I have a 2005 or 2006, I forget lol. 75k miles only. I travel for work and let it sit a week or so. Lately it's been very hard to start like cranking for maybe 10 sec before it fires on up. After that starts perfectly even if turn off immediately. Ambient temp is around 60-90F, nothing super cold. Do glow plugs matter that much at this temp?

My first guess would be air in lines. Second would be glow plugs. But no errors or anything. Strong battery, cranks perfect and fast. I have most expensive battery I could find on there from batteries plus, an AGM battery blue top, I forget cheesy name but they are beasts.

I have not done the fuel filter, I got this from a used car lot. Once it starts it never misses a beat and once warm starts perfectly.

My deere gator had similar issues. My neighbor / deere mechanic told me to put an inline fuel check valve in the suction side. Has started FLAWLESSLY ever since. Could a similar issue be happening here? Do these jeeps have electric lift or tank pumps?

A separate issue is fluctuating headlights, I suspect alternator regulator. Only happens at higher RPM's it seems.

I'm pretty handy with cars and have electrical engineering background so I can fix things, ideas?

Thx!

jagster936 · **Joined:** Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:06 pm **Posts:** 212

I don't know if this matters but this is GDE tuned to turn OFF the EGR via software.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat May 02, 2020 3:24 am

From the factory they did not come with a lift pump in the tank.
The CP3 injection pump has to suck the fuel all the way from inside the fuel tank, through the fuel filter to the internals of the injection pump.
Many owners install a in tank lift pump retrofit to alleviate all air in fuel issues one of which can be hard starting after setting for a while.
But luckily they are partly wired for one with a relay, ECM logic, and wiring to under the rear seat.

See this thread for more details:> viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26385

Also as a new CRD owner, please read through the NOOB Guide, lots of very good information for a new owner of one of these vehicles.
Sam's CRD Noob Guide:

jagster936 · **Joined:** Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:06 pm **Posts:** 212

Interesting. That’s similar to the gator thing a check valve stores a small amount of fuel between pump and line where valve is located. Causing quick start. Hard suction. And enough fuel to not hard start or even stutter. I guess no one has tried this? Hmm.

If air is getting in lines a lift pump would cause leaks where the air is coming in wouldn’t it ?

That is a great thread indeed! I can do lift pump later on but looking for a quicker help or fix at the time. Maybe new fuel filter or filter housing ?

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat May 02, 2020 1:59 pm

jagster936 wrote:

Interesting. That’s similar to the gator thing a check valve stores a small amount of fuel between pump and line where valve is located. Causing quick start. Hard suction. And enough fuel to not hard start or even stutter. I guess no one has tried this? Hmm.
It is not a "drain-back" issue on this vehicle. Adding a check valve would be just something else for the CP3 injection pump to have to overcome when sucking fuel from inside the fuel tank.

If air is getting in lines a lift pump would cause leaks where the air is coming in wouldn’t it ?
Only if you add the lift pump outside the fuel tank!
That is a great thread indeed! I can do lift pump later on but looking for a quicker help or fix at the time. Maybe new fuel filter or filter housing ?

The OEM filter head assembly is notorious for leaking where the fuel heater plug-in is connected. Unplug the fuel heater and looks for signs of fuel leakage.
Many have replaced their fuel filter head with an updated new one because of this issue.

Since the CP3 injection pump is sucking (vacuum) the fuel from inside the fuel tank, any leak anywhere on the system will allow air to be sucked into the fuel system.
The OEM fuel filter head has a manual pump located on top of it that you could try pumping up by hand before starting vehicle cold and see if that has an affect on your long starting issue.
If it does, you have a leak somewhere.
New redesigned fuel filter head PN: - 68043089AA
IDParts has them:> https://www.idparts.com/updated-fuel-fi ... -4723.html

The OEM factory hoses back at the fuel tank have PUSH-ON type fittings that were designed for gas vehicles that have a fuel pump inside the fuel tank from the factory.
A real bad application on the Jeep CRD with NO fuel pump inside the tank.
They are designed to seal under pressure, not designed to seal under vacuum, so they too can allow leakage of air into the system.

By installing an IN-TANK fuel pump in your Jeep CRD, it puts the entire fuel system under pressure, all the way from inside the fuel tank to the back of the CP3 injection pump.
Any leak anywhere on the system will be self evident very quickly as fuel will leak out, not allow air leakage in.

Adding a lift pump somewhere outside the fuel tank has been done by some, but keep in mind it is still having to SUCK the fuel from inside the fuel tank up to lift pump.
So if there is a leak, it will simply suck air into the fuel system.
The best and most prudent course of action is to install the pump inside the fuel tank and be done with it once and for all....

:SOMBRERO:

jagster936 · **Joined:** Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:06 pm **Posts:** 212

Thank you for the response and ideas! I wonder if anyone has tried the check valve thing, though in the gator it has much less far to travel on the pump suction side. It sure resolved the same exact issue though.

Are glow plugs really needed at 70-90F outside? I need to rule those out also

Thx

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun May 03, 2020 10:20 pm

jagster936 wrote:

Thank you for the response and ideas! I wonder if anyone has tried the check valve thing, though in the gator it has much less far to travel on the pump suction side. It sure resolved the same exact issue though.
Are glow plugs really needed at 70-90F outside? I need to rule those out also
Thx

Again, it's not a fuel drain back issue. It is most likely air in fuel issue, so adding a check valve in the suction line will most likely make it even worse.
GP's operation according to the FSM (factory service manual) below:
Please keep in mine, some say the FSM is NOt correct on this time table.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2020 4:12 am

I totally agree adding a fuel check valve would in theory help since it restarts easily but any extra obstruction even a little bit is not good. For instance I know from experience as do many others here installing an additional 2 micron fuel filter demands too much suction from the engine fuel pump. You must have an additional lift pump to do that and I would not install a check valve in fuel line without other modification which should eliminate the need for the check valve.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2020 3:57 pm

TKB4 wrote:

I totally agree adding a fuel check valve would in theory help since it restarts easily but any extra obstruction even a little bit is not good. For instance I know from experience as do many others here installing an additional 2 micron fuel filter demands too much suction from the engine fuel pump. You must have an additional lift pump to do that and I would not install a check valve in fuel line without other modification which should eliminate the need for the check valve.

X2

Exactly!

jagster936 · **Joined:** Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:06 pm **Posts:** 212

Hmm interesting. I’ll think about it. The check valves do not cause any noticeable drag on suction IMO!

Thx for ideas.

So y’all don’t think it’s glow plugs. No errors or anything.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2020 10:41 pm

jagster936 wrote:

Hmm interesting. I’ll think about it. The check valves do not cause any noticeable drag on suction IMO!
Thx for ideas.
So y’all don’t think it’s glow plugs. No errors or anything.

Anything put on the suction side of the injection pump if it does not already have a lift pump installed adds additional loading or resistance to the pump sucking the fuel all the way from inside the fuel tank.
Again, fuel drain back is NOT the issue, so adding a check valve will only make matters worse and not cure anything! :banghead:

jagster936 · **Joined:** Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:06 pm **Posts:** 212

Maybe. It could be issue since it starts fine after it first fires lol. As previously stated.

What about glow plugs.

foxmiles · **Posted:** Thu May 07, 2020 9:47 am

Mine really likes her glow plugs, even at warm outdoor temps when the engine is cold. How to tell? Go straight from off to crank like a gasoline engine and she'll crank and crank before starting. Wait at "run" for 30sec and she'll usually start right up.

It was worse when I had the 7v steel plugs. Especially below 30F. They liked 3 cycles like my old Mercedes diesel did at 0F (key to run wait 30sec, key to off, repeat then crank after 3 cycles) and she still had a bit of a long crank. At 90F she starts pretty much as expected. (get in, turn to run, put seat belt on, crank) I ended up putting Bosch 5v steel glow plugs in and it starts a lot better at colder temps.

Try cycling the key 2-3 times (waiting at run for 30sec each time), if that makes a big difference you probably have 7v steel glow plugs and they just take longer to heat up. If they're blown I think it will usually set a code. It might be worth changing them out for Bosch 5v steel glow plugs just to be safe, as the original 7v ceramics worked great but could break and destroy the engine.

I put an in-tank lift pump in mine while chasing another (so-far unresolved) problem. It made no difference to anything as far as I can tell, but it's cheap insurance. Air leaks are a known issue due to the design of the fuel system (and very common). A fuel leak is a lot easier to locate, and part of the problem is the sealing system used in the QD's on the fuel system was apparently designed for pressure, as it will leak air in, but with a lift pump won't leak fuel out.

jagster936 · **Joined:** Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:06 pm **Posts:** 212

Fascinating. Thx for advice. !

How to verify plugs ? Current clamp?

I haven’t formally tried waiting for the glow plugs will try that thx

I have a GDE tune / can’t easily change glow plug voltage without tuning right.

Only 75k miles I’m sure it has originals.

foxmiles · **Posted:** Thu May 07, 2020 12:17 pm

I run the 5v Bosch with the 7v programming. So far so good. It's a risk, but seems less risky than the aging ceramics. It might lower the life of the glow plugs, but they shouldn't fail catastrophicly. It also seems to compensate for the slower heat up time on the steel plugs a bit.

There's a lot of info on here about them. I think you can ohm them to tell that they haven't completely failed. You could try measuring current, but it's controlled by the computer, so the readings will vary.

I think the ceramics were recalled, but not all of them were changed, I don't know a easy way to tell what you have. Maybe someone else here does! I remember something about colored rings on them if you can get a good look at one.

First thing I'd do is play with the run-start timing, see if that helps. The guy I bought mine from told me the little red security light was the glow plug light. I didn't even see the actual glow plug light for several months! It flashes on for about 2 seconds, which is waaay too short.

jagster936 · **Joined:** Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:06 pm **Posts:** 212

hahah yea silly fast light. I’ve seen it. I’ll take a look at all this thx

jagster936 · **Joined:** Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:06 pm **Posts:** 212

As an update, I haven't had much time to test but I pause 5 sec before start (instead of waiting the 2 sec for light) and it starts as if warm now...lol.

I will continue doing this and next winter as it gets cold do it / longer and see if issue returns. That 2 sec light is useless it's supposed to vary in accordance with temp not 2/10 like stated here. Silly. I guess modern cars have super fast glow plugs but I will report back if get a slow start, so far perfect!

Another interesting thing, in the winter, when its real cold (for South Texas lol), 40 or below. The torque converter won't lock until maybe a minute or so into driving as if it's warming up. Is this normal?

One final thing is I hate when the torque converter locks, can this speed be adjusted? I'm in the country and cruise around 50-60 often and it finds itself jumping in and out of torque lock. Pretty annoying and needless wear tear. I'd like to lower or raise the speed. Is that in the transmission coding I'm assuming?

Thx!

casm · **Joined:** Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:05 pm **Posts:** 694

foxmiles wrote:

I run the 5v Bosch with the 7v programming. So far so good. It's a risk, but seems less risky than the aging ceramics. It might lower the life of the glow plugs, but they shouldn't fail catastrophicly. It also seems to compensate for the slower heat up time on the steel plugs a bit.

Ditto on the Bosch 5V glow plugs. They've been in our KJ for a bit over a year-and-a-half at this point, and I can confirm that we've yet to see any adverse effects from them being installed with 7V programming still in place.

What I usually do is to turn the key to run, wait for the seat belt chimes to stop, switch off, then repeat the process if it's particularly cold out. At as low as 0°F I may need to do this up to three times before starting, but it always seems to work. The only real cold-weather starting issues I typically have are if I have a brain fart and just turn the key with the engine completely cold, forgetting to pause for the glow plugs to warm up. That usually happens at least once per Winter.

Oh, and check your battery. Can't stress this enough. A marginal battery will result in reduced glow plug performance.

Re: the torque converter not locking up when cold: yes, that's normal to aid with warm-up.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat May 09, 2020 1:45 pm

YOU DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE THE PROGRAMMED VOLTAGE.

This is important - you WANT the 7 volt software that you have currently. If your CRD still has the original glow plugs, you want to get them out of there, the ceramic plugs are known to fail and when they do, they can throw ceramic shrapnel into the cylinders and cause severe engine damage. Some have had the ceramic manage to escape the cylinders without causing damage or be smashed to powder and blown out... But I wouldn't want to trust fate like that.

When replacing the plugs, you want the 5V bosch metal plugs from IDparts.com as they will start great with the "voltage mismatch" and will NOT be damaged by that. There are people going on 4 years now with the plugs set up in this way.

Now about your pulsing headlights: This is 100% caused by the alternator's clutched pulley. This is very common and you ONLY need to replace the pulley to solve it. However, the longer you wait, the more chance that your serpentine tensioner will be damaged by the pulsing, and end up that you have to replace the tensioner too. That's a lot more expensive. If the center body of the tensioner has separated so you can see a gap of more than 1/32" it is likely already too late. The tensioner has a rubber core, this is why it must be replaced. When the engine is running, if the tensioner pulley is bouncing excessively, the alternator pulley is definitely out and needs replacement.

Air in the fuel - Take a good look at the filter housing. The two plugs on the front, if the right hand one is not large and BLUE - then you have the first generation filter head. EITHER WAY - unplug that right-hand plug and see if it looks burned or wet or smells of diesel. If not, then just leave it unplugged. This is the fuel heater and it is NOT needed, even in winter. It WILL NOT help you with gelled fuel (as it only turns on after the engine is running) and is not powerful enough to actually raise the temperature of the fuel more than a degree or two. BUT if the plug looks burned or wet - then you likely have a fuel leak / air leak in this socket. Spray it out with brake cleaner, and then fill the socket with any RTV silicone you have laying around. This will make a solid plug that will seal off the air leak.

You said your CRD has 75k miles on it. Has the timing belt ever been replaced? Probably not - but if you have either a receipt for work done or a yellow sticker under the hood somewhere that says that a Gates Belt was installed, then it was. The timing belt MUST be replaced either every 100k miles OR 6 years. If it is still the original belt, then it is nearly 3 times it's original age limit!

If you need help with any of this stuff, I am the traveling CRD tech. This is the ONLY vehicle I work on, and I've helped over 110 of them now. I'd be happy to help you with yours, just email me (button below) and we can go from there.

jagster936 · **Joined:** Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:06 pm **Posts:** 212

What a great forum! Thanks for the detailed responses!

First of all, I'm an avid DIY'er so I do all my own mechanic work generally. Secondly, don't fix what's not broken is what I more less live by, that being said..some PM is good I know. My dad has gone 220k on a 60k timing belt, for example. Yes I know the statistics but that's what they are, the chances are low on this machine given lower mileage. Though I do realize it's time-old.

The timing belt is probably original I wasn't going to do it until 100k but it's on the list!

Original programming + tune by GDE..I'm assuming they left the voltage at 7V but not sure. I will add glow plugs to the list, and fuel filter probably.

It has a "hiss" when I accelerate always sounded like intercooler leak but I have yet to locate it. Did a pressure test once with home made kit PVC rubber coupler type thing and worm clamps and schroeder valve..it just blew off lol couldn't pressurize enough to test. When I get the nerve to spend 200 on a pressure test kit or whatever I'll check it out one day. No codes thrown though! Very strange

Battery new AGM very powerful.

Never would have guessed pulley lol, I'll look into both of those, thanks!

Travelling CRD tech, wow! Pretty nice, how did you get into this? I will keep you in mind if I ever am in a pinch as this will be the future wife's car. Is my excuse to get it anyway

.

One other thing, I cannot make the tires really skid and brakes are mushy to some extent. Like I cannot stop HARD FAST. So I plan to bleed them sometime before she drives it, and if not then replace master cylinder. I'm not sure if there is a history of these things failing the master cylinder? No leaks anywhere of course.

Liberty CRD Hard to Start When Cold

Who is online