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 Post subject: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:44 pm 
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New to the site, and it's already been a wealth of information. So thank you for that. I have 2 '06 CRD's and hope to keep them forever.

I've read the Noob guide and a host of other threads, when I've had some issues, and have always found the right information.

This particular jeep I just did the Weeks stage 1+2, Hot Diesel Thermostat, "upgraded" the glow plugs to the 5V Bosch metal ones, number one was burnt to a crisp. Also replaced Vacuum lines with silicone lines. Samco Hose upgrade, and the turbo Hose intake upgraded to Silicone. Has 230,000 on it, and just replaced timing belt about 30 grand ago. Other than that, everything else is stock. What a difference removing all that EGR stuff, takes off like a Jet now.

Little history, I've had it for just over 2 years, and twice it's gone into Limp Mode, and I've never really figured out why. There really wasn't anything I really did. However after the first time, it was Timing belt time, so I did all that, and it was fine. Did the limp mode thing again and after a week of sitting just started up and was fine. Thought it was a vacuum issue, so replaced the lines and ran fine, but it really didn't seem like any of the old lines were bad. It also takes a few extra seconds of cranking to start, nothing crazy, but it is a bit elderly on the miles.

Only codes it's thrown are the Glow Plug code. I use torque lite, so not sure if it's reading everything that's there. Now, of course it's throwing all the EGR codes. Since GDE doesn't do the tunes in the US anymore, I'll have to use one on here, again, glad that info is here.

So, now the real reason for the questions... it ran great, drove it for about a week, parked it at night, the next morning, it cranks just fine, and won't start. Changed the Fuel Filter, as I'm in Northern Ohio and it was a bit chilly overnight but nothing crazy, verified I'm getting fuel at the rail, even took off the hose to the pump to put diesel in there and won't even cough like it wants to start. Block heater is plugged in and charged the battery to make sure it's cranking full. I've read the Crank no start no code threads, but nothing ends up being what it appears mine is doing. I don't want to just throw parts at it, but it doesn't seem like there's very many things that can make this not want to run.

I am thinking Crankshaft or Camshaft sensor, but wouldn't they throw a code? Does Torque lite maybe not read those codes? I currently don't have a way to get any real fuel pressure readings, but cracking number one injector appears fuel is pumping just fine.
If I do just throw a crankshaft sensor on it and it works, I'll still scratch my head because I hate not knowing why it's not working or throwing a code... or maybe I just need a really good Code reader. :D

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated, even if the consensus is to just throw a crankshaft sensor on it to see.


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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:11 pm 
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CPS are notorious for going bad and not setting a DTC. :banghead:
If you are getting fuel and the CP3 is pumping the rail up to proper pressure, then something is not firing the injectors off.
The ECM has to see certain things before it will fire the injectors to start the engine.
No security issues with key fob. Red warning on dash cluster off.
CPS and cam sensor would be good places to start.
Have you had it scanned, not all DTC's turn on the check engine light.
A good scan tool would tell you RPM's when cranking engine over.
If the engine is turning over at a good speed and battery voltage is not dropping to low, you got to start a process of elimination.
Deep scanning may save you a lot of time.... :juggle:

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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:24 pm 
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Oh yeah, the Red Dot goes out with Key on. No exhaust when cranking either, like not even the slightest.

I guess if I want to keep these forever, time to invest in a little more than Torque lite. :)

The local garage has the good scanner, but they didn't even know Jeep made a "Liberty Diesel?" When a mechanic opens the hood and says "I've never seen one of these before" probably not going to get much help.

Thanks, time to play pick a part and see what happens...lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:54 pm 
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I have a similar issue, no start, no codes, fuel at the injectors but no smoke or fuel in the exhaust.

Did you solve the problem? What was it?


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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:39 pm 
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If you are looking for a tech who is experienced with this engine, you won't find one at your local shop. I'm the traveling CRD tech, this is the ONLY vehicle I work on. It DOES seem like you have an electronic issue but there needs to be more investigation.

Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot com] and we can go from there, the forum software's messaging has been acting up lately and messages aren't always sent properly.
--Jim

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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:21 am 
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geordi wrote:
If you are looking for a tech who is experienced with this engine, you won't find one at your local shop. I'm the traveling CRD tech, this is the ONLY vehicle I work on. It DOES seem like you have an electronic issue but there needs to be more investigation.

Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot com] and we can go from there, the forum software's messaging has been acting up lately and messages aren't always sent properly.
--Jim


There's a ton of techs out there that can do diagnostic on this vehicle. It's a Bosch common rail diesel like many others !

We're not talking about the space shuttle here :frankie:


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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:44 am 
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Like I mentioned, I have 2 of these, one of which is currently running just fine. Would it make sense to "test" a sensor from the one running to the one not running as a troubleshooting method? I wouldn't want to ruin a sensor testing on the one not running, if that is even a possibility.

And of course, I don't know why, but it's easier to try to mull it over in the brain for a week, only to find out it'll be a cps or something simple...LOL.


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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:56 pm 
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So I've been busy, and haven't gotten to the Jeep, since it's snowed a couple times, and I work from home, so don't need to drive it.

I have someone use a different app and it's now "Pending" a P0093 Fuel System Leak - Large Leak Code.

Now after it wouldn't start, I did change the Fuel Filter, and it's certainly bled and doesn't appear to have any air. it hasn't fired or ran before or after that. Would that set that Code.

There is clearly no exhaust coming out still. Doesn't appear any RPM when cranking, so even though there's no Crank Sensor Code, would that be pointing to the Crank Sensor?

Like I mentioned, I just did the Weeks 1+2, and it ran sweet for a week, so did some junk come loose in the intake and take out the Cam Sensor?

Just looking for ideas while I sit here watching it snow some more.


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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:29 pm 
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The only real way the ECM has to know if the CKP sensor has failed is if there is something to correlate it against. If the engine is stopped, there is no reference to say it's good or bad, and with no CKP sensor output the ECM doesn't know to even try and start the engine. Thus, bad CKP sensor = no start no code. As mentioned earlier, you can often use a scan tool with live data output to see if any RPM is read ... If yes, the CKP is likely good. If no, then likely bad. The only way to directly test the sensor is with an oscilloscope, so unless you have one then you need to rely on output from the ECM.


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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:09 pm 
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Messing with it today a little, and not sure why I haven't paid attention to this, probably because I'm too focused on messing around with the OBDII Tool and the Torque app. When I crank it, the Tachometer does nothing. Doesn't budge. I'm gonna go with everything so far points to the Crank sensor.

I want to replace the sensors anyway, since it has over 230 thousand on it, mainly before another one just goes out, or at least have them on hand when it does go.

I'll let you all know what happens.

Thank you for all the information, this forum has been great!


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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:16 pm 
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OK, so someone help me out here. Went out, swapped the ASD relay with the Blower Motor Relay, gave it a wif of starting fluid, and bam, cranked over a few times and started right up. Thing is the blower motor worked, so it doesn't seem the ASD relay was it either. Didn't do anything with the Crank Position Sensor either.

Tell me why it's running just absolutely fine now after not starting at all, or getting fuel in the cylinders. Drove it 20 plus miles and stopped and started it up 3 or 4 times while out, and totally fine.

I'm stumped, and wondering if it's going to go down again at some random time.


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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:54 pm 
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Air in fuel? :banghead:

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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:33 pm 
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Inspectorrobb wrote:
OK, so someone help me out here. Went out, swapped the ASD relay with the Blower Motor Relay, gave it a wif of starting fluid, and bam, cranked over a few times and started right up. Thing is the blower motor worked, so it doesn't seem the ASD relay was it either. Didn't do anything with the Crank Position Sensor either.

Tell me why it's running just absolutely fine now after not starting at all, or getting fuel in the cylinders. Drove it 20 plus miles and stopped and started it up 3 or 4 times while out, and totally fine.

I'm stumped, and wondering if it's going to go down again at some random time.


I had similar experience with the ASD, it could be just a bad contact. The ASD system is really finicky and it won't let the engine start.

Look at all its component and make sure everything is fine !


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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:37 am 
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Probably the ASD Relay was making bad contact in its socket.
The contacts can get dirty and sometimes the female pins in the socket lose their tension so have to be bent together a bit. :?

Glad it is working fine now! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:18 pm 
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Update to this as it's been a minute. After it was running from last time, drove it for about a week and a half, started every day no problem, cold, not cold, plugged in, started up and ran just fine.

Sat then for a few weeks, as I don't leave home much since I work from home, been cold and snowy up here in Northern Ohio.

Went out to drive it, it had been plugged in, cranks just fine, but no start. The first key turn to crank, Tach doesn't move. Second time I turn the key to crank it, Tach moves up, but still no start.

Break out the Starting fluid... Bam, cranked it about 10 seconds, it was cranking like it wanted to start at first, then starts right up and runs like a finely tuned diesel should. It's an 06 so the Fuel filter mount is the updated one, so no fuel leaks or air leaks there. Fuel Filter had just been changed after the first time it didn't start. Pumped the plunger about a million times till my hands were almost broken, and nothing, no start, not even a puff till that starting fluid trick got it going.

Is it somehow losing the pressure in the line, due to it sitting, and have some issue where the Rotary pump isn't pulling the fuel like it should, but once it does start, it's good the next day?

Still stumped.


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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:08 am 
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It doesn't have "pressure" in the line, it is an entirely suction system. If you are pumping the plunger on the filter head and it does NOT get firm - then you have air in the line and / or a defective primer system (it's happened) and that is why it doesn't want to start.

When you changed the filter, did you ensure that there was only the ONE center gasket? The old one gets stuck on the center shaft and it's hard to see, then you have two on there with the new one and an air leak. That's a popular problem. The primer button might be leaky, but when you pump it, it SHOULD eventually get firm - that's when you open the bleed screw on the opposite side of the head to let the air out, close it and repeat until you get only fuel.

Air in the fuel is a common issue with these, a lift pump in the tank or at least next to the filter head (on the tank side) is a popular solution. When there is fuel, the engine should fire off easily.

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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:56 pm 
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Having to pump the primer "a lot" seems like a problem, maybe related to the P0093 code, and maybe related to the no start problem. My CRD sat for three years and only took a few pumps to prime the system and get it started - so it shouldn't take much. I don't know the trigger for P0093, how the ECM knows to display that code, but I would focus my effort there - unfortunately the FSM doesn't list that code. Maybe there is a manufacturer specific code stored that Torque Lite can't read? If you have any leak in the fuel system, it could be enough for the pump to suck air at low engine speed, but be overcome once the pump is spinning faster.


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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:15 pm 
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Have this on file for the code: P0093 -- Fuel system leak detected – large leak, Wiring, fuel pressure sensor, mechanical fault

In your case, you certainly need to install a lift pump. It will cure all "air in fuel" issues. An in tank fuel pump certainly is the best choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:50 pm 
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Does the fuel head have a pressure sensor on it? Is that what the 3rd electrical connection is for? Or, do you think that code is referring to the sensors on the rail?


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 Post subject: Re: Cranks, does not start, fire, and has no codes
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:06 pm 
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thesameguy wrote:
Does the fuel head have a pressure sensor on it? Is that what the 3rd electrical connection is for? Or, do you think that code is referring to the sensors on the rail?

There are only two electrical connectors on the fuel filter head itself, the third connection is the WIF (water in fuel) sensor on the bottom of the filter.
On the filter head: See picture
1. Fuel temperature sensor (built into the fuel head)
2. Fuel heater.
There are NO fuel pressure sensors on the Fuel Filter Head, they are only on the CP3 Injection Pump and on the Fuel Rail. See Table below picture.

As to the P0093 code, it is very generic and can cover a lot of sensors on the fuel system.
This is a link to OBD-Codes.com for a very good write up on what can cause this code and what to troubleshoot
P0093 Fuel System Large Leak Detected

Image

Image

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Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount

98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve


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