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 Post subject: retmil46 Lift Pump and Fuel Cooler Topic
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:03 pm 
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I presume remital46 has no picture hosting capability so he sent 22, count them 22, pics to me which I will assume he hoped I would post for him. Here are 4 representative ones but I decided to link the rest at a location at the bottom.

Nice job Mitchell.

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See all 22 pics here:

http://cowcatcher.googlepages.com/mitch ... lcoolerpag

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:17 pm 
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Wow, you sure do need a lift pump just to handle all the extra plumbing. :shock: I'm not against the lift pump, I wish it was more simple and easy to remove for warrenty purpose.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:06 pm 
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That fuel return cooler looks like a small trans cooler.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:13 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
That fuel return cooler looks like a small trans cooler.


Exactly, that's all it is.

Ranger1 used an even simpler/cheaper one from Permacool, a 2 pass fin and tube, 8"long by 2 1/2" wide, that they also sell as a power steering cooler.

If you can plumb in an extra tranny cooler on your own, this is no more complicated than that.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:47 pm 
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Whats the point of the cooler pump?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:34 pm 
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Endurance wrote:
Whats the point of the cooler pump?


Pump is in the supply line to the filter and injection pump (ie, to the engine). Cooler is in the return line from the engine, to get rid of all the heat the recirculated fuel picked up going thru the engine and injection pump, to keep from heating up the entire fuel tank.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:51 pm 
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retmil46 wrote:
Endurance wrote:
Whats the point of the cooler pump?


Pump is in the supply line to the filter and injection pump (ie, to the engine). Cooler is in the return line from the engine, to get rid of all the heat the recirculated fuel picked up going thru the engine and injection pump, to keep from heating up the entire fuel tank.
Is this bad? Fuel heated by the engine I would presume is a normal condition, and taken into consideration in the design of the tank.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:41 pm 
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Quote:
Fuel heated by the engine I would presume is a normal condition


It is normal.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:39 am 
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onthehunt wrote:
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Fuel heated by the engine I would presume is a normal condition


It is normal.


And would not be a big problem in a pressurized system, but heat build up combined with fuel under a vacuum is probably a big contributor to air collecting in the filter head. I think everyone agrees this is a BAD thing. Cooling the fuel down may help prevent air collecting in the filter head...it also will protect his lift pump from excessive heat.

Keeping the tank from getting hot was not a concern I dont think.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:56 pm 
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BlackLibertyCRD wrote:
Wow, you sure do need a lift pump just to handle all the extra plumbing. :shock: I'm not against the lift pump, I wish it was more simple and easy to remove for warrenty purpose.


Speaking of warranty, DCX's New CEO has got that one figured out - You'll need to be in there for a paid service every 7500 miles.

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Last edited by crdmike on Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:50 pm 
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Jeger wrote:
onthehunt wrote:
Quote:
Fuel heated by the engine I would presume is a normal condition


It is normal.


And would not be a big problem in a pressurized system, but heat build up combined with fuel under a vacuum is probably a big contributor to air collecting in the filter head. I think everyone agrees this is a BAD thing. Cooling the fuel down may help prevent air collecting in the filter head...it also will protect his lift pump from excessive heat.

Keeping the tank from getting hot was not a concern I dont think.
I am new to this vehicle, but most other diesels I am familiar with have a flow back to the tank that should keep air bubbles to a minimum. But it sounds to me that the OEM factory filter head is the highest point in the fuel system, and collects air. In the old Mercedes I have, the filter head is where the fuel return passes on it's way back to the tank, and air is flushed continuously. Sounds like there could be a couple other options, like relocating the fuel filter lower or re-routing the fuel return to pick up the trapped air.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:28 pm 
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In gas marine applications where multipoint fuel injection is used, there is generally a vapor separator tank after a lift pump (either mechanical or electric). The fuel level in this small tank is controlled by a float valve. Seems a simple solution to move (or replace) the filter to a lower level with a small lift pump between the filter and supplying a separator tank at the site of the old filter mounting. The CP3 unit pulls off of this tank. Gets rid of air in the fuel and also fits with MrMopars suggestion that no positive pressure be applied to the CP3 suction unit. FWIW.

Doug


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 Post subject: TAPPING INTO THE FUEL LINES
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:44 am 
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retmil46 (Mitchell) sent this info - VERY USEFUL for how to tap into the lines at the fuel tank without cutting them - THANKS MITCHELL!!!

Quote:
Quick disconnects on the fuel lines are tool-free. If you feel around on the female part, up toward the top is a small tab on one side. Press it in, and it will release the clamps inside so that you can pull the male part (metal line) out.

Might take a few tries to press it in far enough and at the right angle, but the two parts should separate easily once you get it right. If you're straining and they won't separate, you don't have the tab pressed in right. Just takes a little patience.

Best selection for fittings I found locally was at NAPA. They call them fuel line repair kits.

You'll need one of the double-ended male metal pipe sections, 3/8". At NAPA, they come in a pack with both the 3/8" and 5/16" pipe sections. Youll need this to mate up to the female side of the quick disconnect on the vehicle. You'll also need some type of tubing bender to bend it to an appropriate angle to get it to run in the direction you want. As far as hooking up fuel hose to the other end of the pipe, you can either cut off the excess length and double-clamp 3/8" fuel hose over it (a very snug fit over that pipe), or get one of the 3/8" straight body female quick connects they sell separately and made to have hose clamped onto it, install this qucik connect on the opposite male end of the pipe and then clamp the fuel hose to it.

To connect to the male end on the vehicle, I got one of the kits that has a 3/8" female quick connect with 90 degree elbow and 18" of nylon fuel line attached. I cut the nylon fuel line off the quick connect and clamped on 3/8" fuel hose (the quick connect has a hose barb end), then simply plugged that onto the male pipe on the vehicle. You could just clamp 3/8" fuel hose over the end of the pipe, but the way my lines were routed and being on the pressure side of the pump, it made for a neater install and less chance of leaks IMO.

Once you've got everything plumbed, if you're using the same Kennedy lift pump, I'd recommend leaving power disconnected to the pump at first, repriming all the lines and venting the filter with the hand primer, and starting the vehicle and let it run for a few minutes to get everything full of fuel. Then shut off the engine and connect power to the pump.

If you're mounting yours in the same place, might want to check and see how the parking brake cable is routed on that side. On mine, it was rather close to the pump but not in a position to cause any problems, yours might be a different story.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:10 pm 
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about time this got a sticky, good job all.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:58 am 
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I can understand having a cooler in a vacuum situation that is part of the CRD fuel system and using a lift pump setup. But wouldn't a inline electric fuel pump at about 5 psi do all that is needed? It would keep a constant pressure to the fuel filter and eliminate a vacuum situation and, with that eliminated, a fuel cooler less necessary.

This would be similar to my semi. Just a thought.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:33 am 
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Cowpie1 wrote:
I can understand having a cooler in a vacuum situation that is part of the CRD fuel system and using a lift pump setup. But wouldn't a inline electric fuel pump at about 5 psi do all that is needed? It would keep a constant pressure to the fuel filter and eliminate a vacuum situation and, with that eliminated, a fuel cooler less necessary.

This would be similar to my semi. Just a thought.
But you semi is using older technology then your CRD as far as fuel pressure goes I will assume (yes, I know what it spells) and these high pressures means the returning fuel has been heated by the high compression fuel IP and should be cooled before returning to the tank, except in cold weather. Our '02 automatic VW TDI, which has a higher pressure pump then the manual tranny model, had a return fuel cooler as standard equipment and was thermostatic controled. This helps to prevent the fuel from breaking down and releasing bubbles into the fuel and a mirried of other problems when the fuel overheats.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:01 am 
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oldnavy wrote:
Our '02 automatic VW TDI, which has a higher pressure pump then the manual tranny model, had a return fuel cooler as standard equipment and was thermostatic controled. This helps to prevent the fuel from breaking down and releasing bubbles into the fuel and a mirried of other problems when the fuel overheats.
The highlighted text implies an active, electrically controlled cooling system as opposed to a mini-radiator. Tell us more about it please. Having a cooler that can be turned on and off is appealing for northerners.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:17 am 
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oldnavy wrote:
Cowpie1 wrote:
I can understand having a cooler in a vacuum situation that is part of the CRD fuel system and using a lift pump setup. But wouldn't a inline electric fuel pump at about 5 psi do all that is needed? It would keep a constant pressure to the fuel filter and eliminate a vacuum situation and, with that eliminated, a fuel cooler less necessary.

This would be similar to my semi. Just a thought.
But you semi is using older technology then your CRD as far as fuel pressure goes I will assume (yes, I know what it spells) and these high pressures means the returning fuel has been heated by the high compression fuel IP and should be cooled before returning to the tank, except in cold weather. Our '02 automatic VW TDI, which has a higher pressure pump then the manual tranny model, had a return fuel cooler as standard equipment and was thermostatic controled. This helps to prevent the fuel from breaking down and releasing bubbles into the fuel and a mirried of other problems when the fuel overheats.


Don't think older technology. 2006 Cummins ISX engine. Fuel gets pretty dog gone warm in my semi tanks. Expecially when I get down to a low level. There is considerable hot fuel coming back to the tanks from that 14L engine. They will vapor water that comes in contact with the external surfaces of the tanks.

Either way, it seemed that providing an inline pump that provided about 4.5 - 5 psi would eliminate 90% of the problem some experience with air in fuel. Just eliminating the vacuum condition from tank to fuel filter would go a long ways. Pushing the fuel would be far better than sucking it. At least going that route first would be far more inexpensive and less time consuming. Sometimes the simplest solution is the best. Not always, but sure worth a look see. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure instead of a pound of prevention worth an ounce of cure. If hot fuel was still causing a problem, then look into a fix for that.

A simple to install inline pump would go a long ways, and problably cure most of the problems that some experience. there will always be a few that need more than that. Having a inline pump solution posted here for most users would be a big plus. Then having addtional fixes for the few would be icing on the cake. Heck, some here have never experienced (including me) air in the fuel problems, having to reprime, etc. I am looking at an inline pump solution just to ease my mind on the suction condition. Compared to the larger task of lift pump and cooler, it is like doing your EHM (thanks for that!) as opposed to a Provent.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:50 am 
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For those concerned about lift pump accident shut down, here is a Kennedy solution:

http://www.kennedydiesel.com/detail.cfm?ID=402

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Wish list: Lift, Boulder Bars, Something Bigger in the Front and Back, More Lights


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:59 am 
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Cowcatcher wrote:
oldnavy wrote:
Our '02 automatic VW TDI, which has a higher pressure pump then the manual tranny model, had a return fuel cooler as standard equipment and was thermostatic controled. This helps to prevent the fuel from breaking down and releasing bubbles into the fuel and a mirried of other problems when the fuel overheats.
The highlighted text implies an active, electrically controlled cooling system as opposed to a mini-radiator. Tell us more about it please. Having a cooler that can be turned on and off is appealing for northerners.
It was just a small switching valve (plastic) that was inline somewhere. I don't have the manuals or parts CD's any longer so I can't help, but I will send a quiry to a friend that should be able to get me the info.

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