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 Post subject: Transmission upgrade questions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 pm 
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In reading about the F37 and Suncoast upgrades over the last few days, a couple of ideas have come to mind that I'd like to run past folks for feedback.

First, the basic problem with our stock tranny has been the weak TC (and originally, weak pump). Normal wear and tear will kill the thing, as will heavy use (and possibly the bucking that comes from fuel starvation due to our crappy stock fuel filter system).

As a half-assed "fix" to this problem, DCX instituted the F37. My understanding of the F37 is that it re-programed the TCM so shift points in response to high temperatures were altered. When temps increase to a certain point due to stress on the tranny (like towing), the TCM now kicks it out of overdrive to save the weak torque converter (or when things are really bad, neuter the thing down to a kind of limp mode). The F37 did not reduce the power our little torque monster's engines put put, just neutered their ability to put it to the ground when it is needed most.

I've been reading w/ interest about the Suncoast TC's, and I think I'm going to have one installed in the next few months. However, it seems to me that this doesn't really solve the F37 problem, as now one would have a beefy, heavy duty TC that can take serious punishment, but the TCM module will still kick it out of overdrive whenever temps reach a certain level. The new TC being better built may reduce the temp issue somewhat, and help keep the rig in overdrive, but it seems like the larger problem is still there (when the tranny is working hard, the TCM will try and "save it").

So wouldn't the ideal solution be to upgrade with not only a Suncoast TC and new pump, but also a beefy transmission cooler? Our stock "cooler" does double duty as an AC condensor and tranny cooler.

Has anyone tried upgrading the cooler, and if so, what results have you gotten? Any suggestions on a good model to look at?

My concern with this approach is what effect the increased fluid volume might have on the hydraulics of the tranny. Thoughts?

_________________
2006 Liberty CRD Limited
Mopar engine, transmission, transfer case skids
245/70/16 Michelin Latitude X-Ice (winter)
235/75/16 Firestone Destination ATs (summer)
Thule roof rack, cargo box
V6 airbox mod
Flowmaster 50 2.5 inch muffler
Edge EZ module (set for fuel economy)
SEGR
TDIWagonGuy CCV filter
B99 (summer), B20 (winter)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:21 pm 
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To my knowledge the F37 doesn't so much change the engine's response to transmission temperature, but to torque demands in general. So even if you had low temp, it would still be neutered if applied torque to the transmission was higher than the F37 limits.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:33 am 
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CATCRD wrote:
To my knowledge the F37 doesn't so much change the engine's response to transmission temperature, but to torque demands in general. So even if you had low temp, it would still be neutered if applied torque to the transmission was higher than the F37 limits.


The way I read MrMopar's response here it does both :cry: I can tell you that 3rd with the TC locked means, something like 50 mph tops at 3500 rpm's. and it happens shortly after it drops out of 5th. This happens while pulling my 3000# travel trailer and I hit a small incline. A transmission cooler might help in this situation.
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... 5&start=15

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:26 pm 
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On the F37'ed TCMs restricting torque output from the engine, I'm trying to square that with the reports from folks running an InMotion tune, or a power module, that their F37'ed CRD's are running 10 second 0-60 times and chirping the tires at will.

Reading Mr Mopar's post (that guy is a fantastic resource, by the way), it sounds like the signal to cut torque is coming from the engine module... does the InMotion tune (or chipping) override this?

_________________
2006 Liberty CRD Limited
Mopar engine, transmission, transfer case skids
245/70/16 Michelin Latitude X-Ice (winter)
235/75/16 Firestone Destination ATs (summer)
Thule roof rack, cargo box
V6 airbox mod
Flowmaster 50 2.5 inch muffler
Edge EZ module (set for fuel economy)
SEGR
TDIWagonGuy CCV filter
B99 (summer), B20 (winter)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:41 pm 
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I'm guessing.

I'm not sure what the TCM is using as a 'torque signal' from the PCM - I mean there's no dyno built in, so it has to use the information it is getting from the engine, probably from fuel demand or turbo boost - or any combination - and mapping that to a torque curve in the memory - since the tuner chips are giving false signals to the PCM in order to change the fuel delivery - it could mask the actual engine torque to the Transmission controller.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:12 pm 
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The only way I can see the TCM knowing engine torque is by comparing
engine RPM with TPS signal with input shaft speed.

If engine RPM does not closely match input shaft speed then the TCM will
delay or reduce TC lockup. If the TCM senses more power demand
through the TPS then it probably tells the ECM to reduce fuel untill the TC
can acheive full lockup or it downshifts.
Then, if the TCM is trying to keep the TC in lockup, but senses a difference
between RPM and input shaft speed, fuel will be reduced inorder to
maintain lockup or the tranny downshifts.

I don't really know all the specifics of this tranny. I'm just trying to apply
what I've learned from working on other electronic transmissions.

I think our shift pattern works like this:
1 - 2 - 3 - 3 w/TCC - 4 - 4 w/TCC - 5 - 5 w/TCC
and with OD- off
1 - 2 - 2 w/TCC - 3 - 3 w/TCC
TCC= torque converter lockup clutch

I mean, I could be totally wrong, but I think this is close to how it works.

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
Cheap 1 inch lift, 245-75R-16 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:26 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
I think our shift pattern works like this:
1 - 2 - 3 - 3 w/TCC - 4 - 4 w/TCC - 5 - 5 w/TCC
and with OD- off
1 - 2 - 2 w/TCC - 3 - 3 w/TCC
TCC= torque converter lockup clutch

I mean, I could be totally wrong, but I think this is close to how it works.


Mine is like this:
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 4 w/TCC - 5 w/TCC
and with OD- off
1 - 2 - 3 - 3 w/TCC


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:17 pm 
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Location: Green Cove Springs FL
Here, check this out

http://hotrodlane.cc/New%20HEMI%20Tech/2004%2057%20hemi%20trans.pdf

Makes for some great reading on a lonely saturday night.

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
Cheap 1 inch lift, 245-75R-16 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:55 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:35 am
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Does anyone know what type of signal is sent through the torque sensing wire?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:41 pm 
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ECM takes TCM input, factors injected fuel rate, MAF, MAP, Common Rail Pressure, RPM, throttle angle, and some other matrix stuff and calculates torque input, or efficiency - it's digital data on the buss, part of the OBD2 compliancy requirements - most any good scanner will read it, and it's part of the displayed data on most of the aftermarket tuners

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


Last edited by gmctd on Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:11 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 5:28 pm
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Location: Michigan
CATCRD wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
I think our shift pattern works like this:
1 - 2 - 3 - 3 w/TCC - 4 - 4 w/TCC - 5 - 5 w/TCC
and with OD- off
1 - 2 - 2 w/TCC - 3 - 3 w/TCC
TCC= torque converter lockup clutch

I mean, I could be totally wrong, but I think this is close to how it works.


Mine is like this:
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 4 w/TCC - 5 w/TCC
and with OD- off
1 - 2 - 3 - 3 w/TCC


There is also a 2' gear that you'll get occasionally when trailer towing up steep grades. Normal 2nd gear is 1.67:1, 2' is 1.50.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:31 pm 
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And that's why your 545 may have a 6 on the oem model # tag - it is really a 6-speed transmission, with the 2nd and 2nd prime ratios.

This has all been said before, but I'll nail it all up in one spot for your viewing pleasure - what is needed for upgraded heavy-duty transmission service is the Suncoast torque convertor, the Transgo shiftkit, and an auxilliary cooler, as from Derale, with t-stat controlled cooling fan - also available for you northern guys is a t-stat controlled valve to bypass the external cooler in below 30deg winter temps

The t\c is the greatest source of heat when impeller rpm exceeds turbine rpm, which is anytime the TCC is unlocked - that's the 'moan' you hear as you attempt to increase vehicle speed and engine rpm increases while vehicle speed slowly wallows upward: the t\c clutch has unlocked and the hydraulic coupling is 'slipping' badly - this is addressed by lowering the 'stall' speed, or 'slip', by increasing the vane angles in the impeller and the turbine, or\and increasing the diameter and depth of the impeller and turbine - brazing the vanes also reduces slip by stabilizing the vane blades and maintaining the dimension between the vanes and the housing, thereby reducing leakage.
The oem flexible plastic stator is replaced with a rigid aluminum unit with steel-cage sprag, and the various plastic bearings are replaced with Timken needle bearings
The TCC clutch gets improved friction surfaces and increased surface area (some vendors mention Kevlar), improved apply-piston seals and enlarged passages which improve lockup and reduce interval between apply command and actual lockup, and release command to total release.
A "billet" housing cover reduces housing flex and resultant clutch drive-surface flex, which reduces slip during lockup.

Shifting interval is next greatest source of heat, where the valve-body accumulators are 'programmed' to increase the delay out of the current range and into the next range - this isn't even good for the clutch friction surfaces, so the programmed-in slip generates much additional heat - you can also do something about this by installing a shift kit.
The TCM controls the shifted range: 1-2-2'-3-4-5, but has nothing to do with this aspect of shifting - this 'programming' is done in the valve body by the mechanical engineers, using soft springs, small orifices, leaks, and other sneaky tricks of the trade, all designed to protect the transmission during the warranty period - any good shift kit 'reprograms' the valve body by increasing and\or decreasing spring tension, opening up orifice diameters, using improved sealing ring compounds, etc - result is firm, quick shifts, reducing heat.

Transmision cooler capacity - size and location - is also responsible for added heat by not providing adequate heat exchanger surface area, or by placing the cooler in a previously heated area, such as the engine coolant radiator, or in combination with other air-over heat-exchanger.
B&M, DeRale, Hayden, and many others offer external auxilliary transmission coolers you can install yourself - as the little Jeep is slightly taxed for available real estate, an auxilliary cooler module with built-in cooling fan becomes very attractive, in spite of the increased cost - these often can be 'self-engineered' for way less than the commercially available models

So, there you have it in a nutshell - tho, a further word about shift kits is necessary, B4 I get off my soapbox

I've been doing this stuff many years across two centuries, racking up lots of experience with all systems automotive, incl automatic transmissions, torque convertors, and shift kit improvements.
Here's a little tip fer ya that still has me flabbergasted: Transgo has always offered a basic shift kit with minimal items to effect a basic upgrade, functional but basic - for those with enhanced sense of thrill and heavier right foot, they offered a transmission reprogramming kit, with all sorts of extra goodies intended for really hi-performance service, naturally more expensive with the pre-tuned valve-body separator plate and other required hard parts.
For your CRD, the Transgo SK45RFE shift improver kit has the prerequisite springs, rings, o-rings, and thicker accumulator cover plate to improve shift quality, and is very reasonable in price at around 45bucks.
The Transgo 45RFE-HD2 Reprogramming kit is a stunner, tho, at greater than twice the price, with only addition of 1@ $0.10 1/2watt carbon film resistor and 2 additional servo springs - all at around 109bucks - bummer, impo.

Fortunately, guys'n'gals, relief is at hand - ya see, Suncoast not only offers the greatly improved torque convertor solution - the 545RFE-CRD-1 at ~700bucks - but also the Transgo 45RFE-HD2 reprogramming kit at 65bucks, only twenny bucks more than the SK45 basic kit - both kits fit the 545RFE\645RFE trans in your beloved CRD, as well as the 45RFE version in the lesser Jeeps.

Gotta love Ron and Mrs Joe and the guys'n'gals at Suncoast.

So, there ya have it, grasshoppers - three paths to save and improve your transmission and reclaim that great Jeep driving experience:

new torque convertor
shift kit
auxilliary fan-over cooler

Adding a trans temperature guage to your pod certainly couldn't hurt, either.

Tell 'em you heard it on L.O.S.T. KJ forums, CRD division......................

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:17 pm
Posts: 100
Location: Richfield WI
I'm surprised you didn't add a higher capacity tranny pan with cooling fins and a drain plug to that list.

_________________
08 GC CRD Overland
Provent

05 Liberty CRD Limited
Rocketchip Level 1, Provent

03 Jetta TDI Wgn 5 spd
Rocketchip Level 5 with upgraded: turbo, DD clutch, fuel delivery, intake and exhaust systems. Deletes: EGR cooler, EGR, Cat.



If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you're reading it in English, thank a veteran.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:47 pm 
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Considered that, but only with addition of a lift and skids - they're too deep for stock - there's pics in the shift-kit upgrade thread - my intent was required improvement to make the stocker dependable, like for those who don't know a winch from a wench, eh? :wink:

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:22 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:17 pm
Posts: 100
Location: Richfield WI
There was another member that installed the larger tranny pan along with the shift kit. He had a link to his site with pictures and the modification he made to the skid plate to get it to fit.

_________________
08 GC CRD Overland
Provent

05 Liberty CRD Limited
Rocketchip Level 1, Provent

03 Jetta TDI Wgn 5 spd
Rocketchip Level 5 with upgraded: turbo, DD clutch, fuel delivery, intake and exhaust systems. Deletes: EGR cooler, EGR, Cat.



If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you're reading it in English, thank a veteran.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:46 am 
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Yep - that's the one I was refering to, and is why that tall pan was not mentioned for stock upgrade

Over 55 years of boneyarding has been, and still is, enjoyable educational experience for me - one thing I learned early on:

a steel pan can be crunched, mushed, mangled, bashed, rocked, wrecked, pinched - you name it, I've seen it - very seldom does the steel pan suffer a hole, in all that carnage

on the other hand, in all the aluminum pans, covers, and housings I've search thru and over, any small upset usually results in a hole, substantial crack or totally missing piece or area

I never recommend aluminum replacement in any case - the deep steel pans, particularly the ones with the steel tubing, are as far as I'll go, particularly for real off-road service - no comparison to the vehicle considered to be off-road when parked on the lawn instead of on the driveway.

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:21 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:21 pm
Posts: 3092
Location: Texas
And - guess what Brown just did for me?

Yep - 'at's right! Delivered right into my hot sweaty hands. :D

Iiiiiiiiiiitttttttttttt's hheeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One each Suncoast 545 CRD upgrade pak - now - has anybody seen a dk blu Liberty running around - you should be able to identify it because IT'S MISSING SOME UPGRADES! :P

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:25 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:00 am
Posts: 19
gmctd wrote:
And that's why your 545 may have a 6 on the oem model # tag - it is really a 6-speed transmission, with the 2nd and 2nd prime ratios.

This has all been said before, but I'll nail it all up in one spot for your viewing pleasure - what is needed for upgraded heavy-duty transmission service is the Suncoast torque convertor, the Transgo shiftkit, and an auxilliary cooler, as from Derale, with t-stat controlled cooling fan - also available for you northern guys is a t-stat controlled valve to bypass the external cooler in below 30deg winter temps

The t\c is the greatest source of heat when impeller rpm exceeds turbine rpm, which is anytime the TCC is unlocked - that's the 'moan' you hear as you attempt to increase vehicle speed and engine rpm increases while vehicle speed slowly wallows upward: the t\c clutch has unlocked and the hydraulic coupling is 'slipping' badly - this is addressed by lowering the 'stall' speed, or 'slip', by increasing the vane angles in the impeller and the turbine, or\and increasing the diameter and depth of the impeller and turbine - brazing the vanes also reduces slip by stabilizing the vane blades and maintaining the dimension between the vanes and the housing, thereby reducing leakage.
The oem flexible plastic stator is replaced with a rigid aluminum unit with steel-cage sprag, and the various plastic bearings are replaced with Timken needle bearings
The TCC clutch gets improved friction surfaces and increased surface area (some vendors mention Kevlar), improved apply-piston seals and enlarged passages which improve lockup and reduce interval between apply command and actual lockup, and release command to total release.
A "billet" housing cover reduces housing flex and resultant clutch drive-surface flex, which reduces slip during lockup.

Shifting interval is next greatest source of heat, where the valve-body accumulators are 'programmed' to increase the delay out of the current range and into the next range - this isn't even good for the clutch friction surfaces, so the programmed-in slip generates much additional heat - you can also do something about this by installing a shift kit.
The TCM controls the shifted range: 1-2-2'-3-4-5, but has nothing to do with this aspect of shifting - this 'programming' is done in the valve body by the mechanical engineers, using soft springs, small orifices, leaks, and other sneaky tricks of the trade, all designed to protect the transmission during the warranty period - any good shift kit 'reprograms' the valve body by increasing and\or decreasing spring tension, opening up orifice diameters, using improved sealing ring compounds, etc - result is firm, quick shifts, reducing heat.

Transmision cooler capacity - size and location - is also responsible for added heat by not providing adequate heat exchanger surface area, or by placing the cooler in a previously heated area, such as the engine coolant radiator, or in combination with other air-over heat-exchanger.
B&M, DeRale, Hayden, and many others offer external auxilliary transmission coolers you can install yourself - as the little Jeep is slightly taxed for available real estate, an auxilliary cooler module with built-in cooling fan becomes very attractive, in spite of the increased cost - these often can be 'self-engineered' for way less than the commercially available models

So, there you have it in a nutshell - tho, a further word about shift kits is necessary, B4 I get off my soapbox

I've been doing this stuff many years across two centuries, racking up lots of experience with all systems automotive, incl automatic transmissions, torque convertors, and shift kit improvements.
Here's a little tip fer ya that still has me flabbergasted: Transgo has always offered a basic shift kit with minimal items to effect a basic upgrade, functional but basic - for those with enhanced sense of thrill and heavier right foot, they offered a transmission reprogramming kit, with all sorts of extra goodies intended for really hi-performance service, naturally more expensive with the pre-tuned valve-body separator plate and other required hard parts.
For your CRD, the Transgo SK45RFE shift improver kit has the prerequisite springs, rings, o-rings, and thicker accumulator cover plate to improve shift quality, and is very reasonable in price at around 45bucks.
The Transgo 45RFE-HD2 Reprogramming kit is a stunner, tho, at greater than twice the price, with only addition of 1@ $0.10 1/2watt carbon film resistor and 2 additional servo springs - all at around 109bucks - bummer, impo.

Fortunately, guys'n'gals, relief is at hand - ya see, Suncoast not only offers the greatly improved torque convertor solution - the 545RFE-CRD-1 at ~700bucks - but also the Transgo 45RFE-HD2 reprogramming kit at 65bucks, only twenny bucks more than the SK45 basic kit - both kits fit the 545RFE\645RFE trans in your beloved CRD, as well as the 45RFE version in the lesser Jeeps.

Gotta love Ron and Mrs Joe and the guys'n'gals at Suncoast.

So, there ya have it, grasshoppers - three paths to save and improve your transmission and reclaim that great Jeep driving experience:

new torque convertor
shift kit
auxilliary fan-over cooler

Adding a trans temperature guage to your pod certainly couldn't hurt, either.

Tell 'em you heard it on L.O.S.T. KJ forums, CRD division......................

hi there im hoping you might be able to help or offer some advice?

im in australia and recently had the stage 2 inmotion tune done
i had this done in an effort to regain the power lost post f37
after fitting the inmtion tuned ecm back in the car i experienced a shuddring sensation (much like damaged uni joints feel like on a tail shaft)
only when the torque convertor is locked at up 60kmh with overdrive off ...........and at 80kmh overdrive on.
i sent the jeep back for another f37 hoping a new pump and tc and cooler might fix the situation
i was well aware that i might loose my tune after they flash the ecm/tcm but found that i didnt and that the shuddering still exists.
would i be correct in thinking that the f37 t/c is not able to cope with the extra torque of the inmotion tune?
or is it more likely to be software related?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:50 am 
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jaydude02

Roughly figuring your KMH to mph I think you might have a air in the filter head problem :roll: Does you shudder occure after acceration to those speeds and letting off the peddle to maintain that speed? If so try a lift pump :D

Joe

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Atlantic Blue 06 CRD Limited (his)
Joined by a 2000 XJ Classic (hers)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:09 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:00 am
Posts: 19
the car is fine until t/c lockup and shudders like im driving over corragations
i also have the air in the fuel problem but the symptoms are different .....
the t/c shuddering i experience didnt occur pre inmotion tune and in saying that only occurs at about 3/4 throttle
the car enters t/c lockup fine and cruises great until i mash the pedal and then i get the shuddering until i ease off or the car kicks down


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