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 Post subject: It's 10pm - where's your lift pump?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:43 pm 
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Also see here: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=29149

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'06 Cummins CRD, '07 KJ V6, both @ full extension
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Both compressed, as in-tank
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V6 4-wire connector
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'07 KJ V6 rear harness
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FYI: '06 Cummins = 9psi
All gassers (patooie!), incl '07 KJ V6 = regulated @58psi
8.5psi@55degF
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'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


Last edited by gmctd on Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:53 am, edited 8 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:53 pm 
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Alex, what are fuel pumps?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:55 pm 
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Idle Hands for $500.00 Alex.

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2006 CRD Sport

Mods: GDE Hot Tune w/ 364#@2000rpm/Air Box /3" Str8 Exhaust/ASFIR Alum Skids/245-75R-16 Cooper STT PRO/OME LIFT w/Clevis & 4 Spring Isos/AirTabs/Rigid 10" S2 LED/4xGuard Ctr Matrix Bumper
Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:17 pm 
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Whoops - sorry about that last pic - that's my guard-chimp, straining at the end of his tether - the chain's just long enuff to reach all the vehicles, but too short to reach where I'm working - gotsta be very careful where the feet are when stretched out under a vehicle - I've lost more than one shoe, that way......................

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'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:43 pm 
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Probably would not be a problem with the 56psi system in-tank, for our CRDs, as long as you put a regulator after the filter to hold it down to single-digit PSI.

Since our stock fuel pickup systems, or the lines between tank and filter, appear to leak air when the vacuum exceeds even a modest value, such a solution would all but eliminate that possibility, wouldn't it?

Mark

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2004.5 Cummins 5.9L TD, F1s, NV5600 6-speed in a '93 GMC Suburban


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:47 pm 
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I like where this might be going......Go GMCTD !

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:36 pm 
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I will going to the "ZOO" this Sunday...so I will meet the monkey in person!...and the trainer :)

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Founder of L.O.S.T.
2006 CRD Sport

Mods: GDE Hot Tune w/ 364#@2000rpm/Air Box /3" Str8 Exhaust/ASFIR Alum Skids/245-75R-16 Cooper STT PRO/OME LIFT w/Clevis & 4 Spring Isos/AirTabs/Rigid 10" S2 LED/4xGuard Ctr Matrix Bumper
Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph


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 Post subject: Refresher for those of us who HAVEN'T added plumbing
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:47 pm 
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For those with short memories (and those making new ones), a few questions:
- what are the PSI tolerances for the factory fuel injection system?
- How does that compare to the PSI on the pumps people have been putting in?
- The plug looks the same, but are the hose connections identical (i.e. same diameter and connections)?
- Can anyone with a lift pump now confirm better or equivalent mileage than stock?

Dan (intrigued by the topic I was convinced would not intrigue me...)

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2005 Silver CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
245/75R16 GoodYear Duratracs
Fumoto drain | ProVent CCV Filter
Stanadyne FM100 filter | Cummins fuel pump
GDE Eco | SEGR | BoulderBars | FrankenLift | Frankenskids


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:03 pm 
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As I've mentioned previously, gasser (patooie!) concepts cannot always be applied to Diesel service - the V6 pump is a hi-pressure pump, with an external bypass-type regulator dumping back into the tank - gasoline does not readily foam, as does Diesel fuel, so this does not cause any problems in that system - the regulator is that hump on the top of the module, the bypass return is the straight black tube beneath, dumps directly into the pickup area

The pump itself would work in Diesel fuel - it's what to do with the bypass volume over 9psi that would be problematical - talk about yer heavy aeration, and directly into the area that was specifically designed to prevent air-bubble intake, even at low fuel levels where that is problematical

Added to that, a pressure regulator is not by nature flowthru - dead lift pump = hope yer AAA membership is paid up!
There's also some evidence that starving the CP3 damages the CP3 - which would happen as the regulated pump slowly died.

So, manana will tell the tale - 'course, this ain't inexpensive - even at this stage, yer lookin' at 325bucks, pre-owned.
'Course, R&D is always more expensive than the finished product, but it should come in at under 200bucks for a pre-owned module with harness, and a new pump.

The electrical connector is identical, even to the wiring scheme - (ground - sender - sender - pump) - pump is blank on the Jeep, but the wiring is conveniently provided to the connector, inside - simply replace the harness with the V6 version, and yer good to go.
Reference - http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=23099

Still need to pull the module from the tank - Jeep provided a maintenance port in the rear floor-pan on the earlier model KJ - is it still there on the '05-up?

The V6 module has the electric pump, but no external provision for fuel return - regulator bypass return is internal - fuel rail return is via another port on the tank

The Diesel system needs a fuel-return port - does the CRD fuel sender module have the return or is it at the other port on the tank - does it have provision for lift pump installation?

Can the Diesel upper unit with two ports be assembled to the V6 lower unit, using a Cummins replacement pump from NAPA\equiv?
They invariably come with full replacement internal module wiring.

Is the V6 module pickup-screen area identical to the 2.8 Diesel unit?
The Cummins screen is roughly 4x the area of the V6, covering the entire bottom of the plastic housing

Will the Cummins module fit with little\no modification - the fuel supply\return port diameters are identical, using the same fittings as the Jeep - what about the extension tubing from the module to the Jeep fuel pipes?
Some modules I looked at had the plastic extension tubing bonded to the module ports

Questions, questions - I tell ya, folks - this is worse than worryin' about who shot JR - I won't sleep a wink, tonite..........

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


Last edited by gmctd on Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:45 pm 
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Dan - it's generally considered that under 10psi will cause no problems, and has not, to this date.

Fuel-return bypass, which could cause additional in-tank aeration, is not needed if flowrate is less than ~35gph - two members have installed bypasses, several members have not - no problems, either way - all pumps so far have been less than 10psi and 35gph - one guy hadda Holley red, iirc, but have not heard much about the results.

Remote transfer pump - lift-pump - should not increase fuel mileage - pressurized-from-tank supply will reduce slow-start, hesitation, surging, etc, all associated with aerated fuel and air leaks in a draw-from-tank system, where the fuel manager head is higher than the engine - might even improve your chances against fuel-heater burnout, if fuel level is always above heater level when thermal demand is needed.

The system is self-priming - ECM takes care of that for ya, and is easily managed electrically when necessary, as at filter replacement time.

You can install the Facet for ~50bucks, the Kennedy for ~200bucks - if this setup works, it should come in under 200bucks - big advantage is, it will be transparent, part of the oem system design - and in-tank motorized pumps should last indefinitely, as they are running in a light oil.
Just pull the lift pump fuse and relay, and MrMoservice cannot tell the system is not as original, for warranty considerations - you know they ain't gonna pull the tank to just to see if you gotta lift pump, right?

I may do a thread on in-tank pumps, where running to consistently low fuel levels is way more damaging than topping off at 1/4 tank - the pump commutators speak for themselves.

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject: Re: Refresher for those of us who HAVEN'T added plumbing
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:53 pm 
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[quote="dgeist- Can anyone with a lift pump now confirm better or equivalent mileage than stock?

Dan (intrigued by the topic I was convinced would not intrigue me...)[/quote]

Mileage is actually a little better :D Expecially when towing my 3500 pound travel trailer, before was 17 and now is 19. 8) My normal driving is all in town and its's also a mile or two more. In order for any diesel pump to work properly it needs a good supply of fuel. So it runs better all around. Preformance and mileage :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:27 am 
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Preliminary good news
- '05 fsm depicts the CRD fuel sending module as identical to the Cummins module, less the fuel pump and it's plastic locating\retaining brace
- the guage sending unit and arm is identical, as is the resistance at empty and full positions.
- the internal supply\return tubing is of thermoplastic material, and is attached by heat-shrink method to all fittings except fuel pump, which has a single-use hose clamp
- external tubing is via the DCX quick-disconnect
- more manana

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:56 am 
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gmctd wrote:
Preliminary good news
- '05 fsm depicts the CRD fuel sending module as identical to the Cummins module, less the fuel pump and it's plastic locating\retaining brace
- the guage sending unit and arm is identical, as is the resistance at empty and full positions.
- the internal supply\return tubing is of thermoplastic material, and is attached by heat-shrink method to all fittings except fuel pump, which has a single-use hose clamp
- external tubing is via the DCX quick-disconnect
- more manana


For poops and giggles why dont you compare the part numbers of the sender and possibly other parts in the whole assembly between the Jeep and the ram??

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"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:05 am 
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We have the Jeep p\n catalog, but not one for the Dodge - and all my 'friends' at Dodge in the big city are fair-weather types: money talks

We'll soon know, fer sure - #2 son is on his way - do hope his Jeep has the service port in the rear floorpan - manual sez some do, some don't.

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:56 pm 
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gmctd wrote:
We have the Jeep p\n catalog, but not one for the Dodge - and all my 'friends' at Dodge in the big city are fair-weather types: money talks

We'll soon know, fer sure - #2 son is on his way - do hope his Jeep has the service port in the rear floorpan - manual sez some do, some don't.


Ram:
http://colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Dodge/DR_(RAM_TRUCK)/

Liberty:
http://colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ/


Though I loose interest in looking them up myself after that, I gotta go work in the garage after all.

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"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:54 pm 
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T'anks, dude - I'm onit .......

It's in - results coming momentarily, soon's it QUITS FRIGGIN' RAININ' - it starts, we put things up - soon as we're put up and inside, it quits - soon's we get out and get started gettin' started, it starts agin - ad infinitum - I'm beginning to fully understand p.m.s. ................

Gots plenty pics - the CRD module is identical to the Cummins, less the pump, and the indexing tab on the top is off just a little, but not enuff to matter, maybe 10* - could use the CRD top but the plastic supply\return tubes are thermo-bonded - no hill for a stepper, as rubber tubing and hose clamps are entirely suitable, tho too expensive for production-line use - we installed as-is to determine any problems, as-is, for those needing plug-n-play function - requires only the '04-'07 Cummins fuel pump\sender module and the '02-'05 KJ V6 rear harness for the '05CRD with RW ABS, and the '06-'07 V6 harness for the '06 CRD with 4w ABS - we got the '06 Cummins and '07 KJ V6 because it was there - for the entrepid owner, all you need is the ground and lift pump wires from any V6 harness, '02-'07, installed in your harness

One interesting fact noted during the ordeal - the Jeep fuel-return line dumps directly adjacent and at the same level as the fuel pickup, on the bottom of the reservoir - seems as tho when the CP3 pump is purging air, the purged air dumps right where it can be recycled back into the system - whassupwidat, eh?

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


Last edited by gmctd on Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:20 pm 
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So, did you have to drop the tank, or did it have the access panel?

gmctd wrote:
One interesting fact noted during the ordeal - the fuel-return line dumps directly adjacent and at the same level as the fuel pickup, on the bottom of the reservoir - seems as tho when the pump is purging air, the purged air dumps right where it can be recycled back into the system - whassupwidat, eh?


Also not good from a thermal standpoint. I've seen recirc systems with other liquids get progressively warmer because the same liquid was going directly from the return line to the suction. I guess normal motion of a vehicle should help keep things mixed, but some separation would still help I'd think.

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05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:00 am 
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Ok - it's in - it runs - lotsa commotion in the backfield, but no clouds of black smoke, as threatened - laying on the ground under the tank, that steady low whir of a rotary pump is very comforting - 9psi steady, just as DCX promised - fuel guage indicated 1/2 full B4, indicates 1/2 full now - pics coming to a thread near you, soon...........

No access panel - dropping the tank wasn't too much of a chore - only 2yrs old, nothing was stuck, frozen, oxidized, or rusted - well........except fer me......I was a little creaky, stiff in the joints.

And Jeep thoughtfully provided the DCX electric pump prime feature: key ON - key OFF - key ON runs the pump for 25 seconds, plenty time to prime a new fuel filter cartridge - bled an awful lot of air outta the fuel manager head, tho lost very little fuel, maybe a tablespoon, during the switcheroo - good thing we have little use for the fuel heater, down here.

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:14 am 
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Congrats, GMCTD.
1. What is the commotion you refer to (the noise)?
2. Could you, when you have a moment, summarize what you actually installed?
3. Could you clarify if your current installation will stop flow if the in-tank pump fails?

Muchas Gracias

_________________
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06 CRD LTD - Suncoast TC- Shift Kit - Spicer UJ - FRKNLIFT - F37 - Magnaflow - 22.0 City - 24@65MPH - Fumoto F-102 - AUX T Cooler - Tank Lift Pump


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:35 am 
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Jeep module, gettin' outta town - be careful with the blue o-ring gasket
Image

Cummins pump, Jeep pumpless
Image

Front view comparo
Image

Driver's-side view comparo (ports are rear-facing in vehicle)
Image

Jeep pumpless
Image

Cummins pump, 5a 9psi, continuous duty
Image

Jeep in situ
Image

Cummins in situ, slight index offset
Image

Very scary, Ed from down under
Image

'06 Cummins Filterminder - note that the MAF plug has been unplugged, locked, and is merely occupying position with no connection
Image

Jeep cabin harness 10pin connector to rear harness for fuel module, VSS - 4W ABS on '06 will be 14pin connector
Image

Disconnected
Image

'07 lift pump wiring added to '05 harness
Image

Lift pump ground wire terminated to chassis ground point on floorpan
Image

'05 and '07 wiring assembled into connector
Image

Mounted in position
Image

Good to go
Image

Cummins fuel manager head
Image

Image

Image

Image

8.5psi@55degF
Image

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


Last edited by gmctd on Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:47 am, edited 10 times in total.

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