Study on lube in diesel fuel.....

MrWinkey · **Joined:** Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:16 pm **Posts:** 37

Draw your own conclusions.....

http://www.johnfjensen.com/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf

I think I will add a lil 2 stroke oil to my diesel rigs now...

gmctd · **Posted:** Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:13 pm

I fully recommend it for the mechanical rotary distributor pumps, such as the Stanadyne DB2 and DS4 and the Bosch VP44\similar, as the fuel is only lubricant and the rotor\head clearances are critical for injection pressures - in those pumps, you add some oil to the fuel as a test for failure - if the engine runs better with the increased viscosity, the inj pump is worn internally, and time fer replacement.

The CP3 was designed for ULSD, so it's prolly not as critical to add lubricity, but, imo, it sure can't hurt - and if you use the synthetic 2-stroke oil, you can cut down on the dosage per tank.

On the other hand, a gallon of motor oil has a lot more therms in it than a gallon of Diesel fuel, which has ~20% more therms than a gallon of gasoline - so fuel economy might improve - some have reported so.

Both my Diesel-engined vehicles (well, all three - my tractor does, also) have mechanical injection pumps, so increased longevity trumps increased economy - I've been running and advocating two-cyce motor oil as fuel additive from the start, recommended by a PhD automotive engineer on the DieselPage.

So, in the vernacular, my doctor tole me it's good fer my Diesel engine........................

chrispitude · **Posted:** Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:58 pm

The CRD is our first diesel vehicle. How much does cetane actually affect the fuel economy? Is it worth it to spend $2 per tank on a lubricity+cetane additive, versus $1 for some 2-cycle oil for lubricity only? Currently I don't use any additive, but this has me intrigued!

- Chris

gmctd · **Posted:** Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:33 pm

Essentially, the higher the cetane rating, which is the ability to auto-ignite at lower temperature (opposite from octane, which is resistance to auto-ignition, for spark-ignited fuels), the easier the fuel combusts, which improves overall combustion, which improves power output per unit volume of fuel, which means it takes less fuel to get the job done, so fuel economy goes up as you ease off on the go pedal.

Generally, in order to see significant immediate difference, you must drive the same route the same time of day (to get the same ambient pressure\temperature\humidity) with the same tire pressure, same load, same technique, fuel from the same station, same production run, same blend fuel.

If your fuel economy drops with #1 winter blend, as does most folks, you could try cetane improver with #1 to see if mileage recovers - 'course, there again, noone tries #1 in July, to see if it's the fuel or the climate that does the deed.

I always run it because the engine is peppier, more responsive to throttle input, along with the required shot of TC-W3 oil for lubricity - 96oz treats 300gal or 16oz\50gal - it's ~12bucks for 96oz

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

For increased lubricity (and a variety of other reasons) it is worth looking biodiesel. A 20% (or even 5%) blend has much better lubricating properties than standard diesel. Cetane is a little lower, and gel point is a little higher, but not an issue in milder climates. And in colder climates, diesel Powerservice treatment works great on B20!

Silverdiesel · **Posted:** Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:58 am

Correctomundo gmctd, the CP3 is designed for ULSD. I run B5 in the CRD as well as in our VW PD-TDI. Those unit injectors were designed for ULSD also. I believe the 500 ppm sulphur diesel with questionable quality is the root for dirty blow by making the EGR and crankcase ventilation systems work bad and then fail/create mayhem. Adding some kind of lube and sticking to the ultra low sulphur fuel is just a good guarantee of longivity of our diesel motors. Our family fleet of light diesels are way too much fun to own and drive to last only 150K miles or so!

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:52 pm

silverdiesel:

How is the PD-TDI with high blends (>>20%) of Biodiesel in cold weather? Word on the street is that those ultra high pressure engines don't like it.

My ol' ALH loves the stuff, but is always a hard starter in cold weather.

blake1827 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:44 pm

Can someone please explain the difference between the two here? Pros/Cons?

Seems kinda pointless for the folks like me who run any biodiesel blends regularly to use any additive, although I do use B20 and 20 oz. (as recomended) of Winter Powerservice each tank for the anti-gel. My KJ started right up this am after being parked on the street all night, temps dropped down into the low teens and not plugged in (engine block heater).

Silverdiesel · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:41 am

BioDieselJeep:
I use B2 to B5 Biodiesel blend mainly for the lube factors. Using ASTM approved biodiesel on that precentage is one of the "slippery-est" ways to achive the goal of properly "oiled" IP's and high pressure injectors. ULSD complements all this by providing a clean less sooty burn.
VW TDI owners fight the same problems with EGR and CCV issues. VW forums talk of EGR blocks and provent systems just like us. Your ALH has a much better tolerance to higher Bio blends than my BRM and so cold weather affects those blends more. I envy you as this different motor that I have is subject to failure with higher Bio blends.
Keeping with the thread IMO using a B5 blend then the nominal amount of say Power Service white bottle will keep those injections parts lubed and able to fire up even after the coldest nites. Theres Power Service white bottle and silver bottle. Use the white for antigel and the silver for added cetane.
By the way I'm here in fun in the sun Arizona. Tonite we will have the "coldest" temps so far this winter--lows in th low 40's (LOL). I have white bottle Power Service on my shelf here but have yet to use any.

dgeist · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:21 am

Silverdiesel wrote:

Keeping with the thread IMO using a B5 blend then the nominal amount of say Power Service white bottle will keep those injections parts lubed and able to fire up even after the coldest nites. Theres Power Service white bottle and silver bottle. Use the white for antigel and the silver for added cetane.
By the way I'm here in fun in the sun Arizona. Tonite we will have the "coldest" temps so far this winter--lows in th low 40's (LOL). I have white bottle Power Service on my shelf here but have yet to use any.

Wear/tear issues on the pump aside, I can't reitterate enough the difference in running ULSD vs. B20(with the same ULSD source) in the CRD. My lib is perceivably smoother-running and gets 2/3 mpg better with the same driving habits on the bio. I have to suspect that some of that is due to the smoother operating conditions (less vibration == more power to the wheels). The statistical data in that report is icing on the cake and I'll keep the bio-compatible antigel around in the winter for the really cold snaps (which is usually a few nights in the single digits in Jan/Feb).

Milner · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:37 am

dgeist wrote:

Wear/tear issues on the pump aside, I can't reitterate enough the difference in running ULSD vs. B20(with the same ULSD source) in the CRD. My lib is perceivably smoother-running and gets 2/3 mpg better with the same driving habits on the bio. I have to suspect that some of that is due to the smoother operating conditions (less vibration == more power to the wheels). The statistical data in that report is icing on the cake and I'll keep the bio-compatible antigel around in the winter for the really cold snaps (which is usually a few nights in the single digits in Jan/Feb).

My experience has been the same in the Libby and the PSD. Here in SLC we ran b20 in the Libby all last winter and so far this year. (last several winters in the PSD) I have never had a gel'ing issue even had a week-10 days in the single digits last winter. At least what I buy around here has enough anti gell in it, that it is not an issue!

chrispitude · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:37 pm

Today is a proud day! I picked up my first 96oz bottle of PowerService (the white bottle) to make up some additive bottles for my wife's commute. The bottle claims that there are lubricity additives in the PS already, but the test results imply that there is room for more lubricity. I may add a little 2-stroke oil. I don't think I'd add a lot, since others have indicated that the CP3 IP was designed to handle the low lubricity of ULSD. Now I just need to find some synthetic 2-stroke oil. My local Wallyworld didn't have any, just the dino juice stuff.

- Chris

gmctd · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:49 pm

Very good question, Blake -

An emulsifier causes the water to become very tiny droplets all thru the fuel so it can be consumed with the fuel - in some ways this is good, as the clean water can reduce NOx as it flashes to steam in the combustion chamber - other ways it's bad, as water results in rust and corrosion in the injection pump, pipes and injectors - that, and the water is seldom clean, rather being that nasty rusty stuff from the bottom of the underground tank at the station - eeuuww....yuck-e!!

A demulsifier causes the water to separate from the fuel and precipitate out, forming a large pool(s) on the bottom of the tank - when it passes thru the lift pump to the fuel manager, it can easily drop out in the WIF section - also makes it easier to be drained, cleaned out by dropping the tank when you see that nasty stuff coming out the WIF drain hose - yuck!.

Either way, the water must be quickly removed from the tank, as a certain bacterium considers the Diesel fuel\water interface to be highly aphrodisiac - takes very little time before they've propagated enuff to plug up the fuel filter and the inj pump

So, for the big boys, running hundreds of thousands of miles every couple months and where the engine is always running, an emulsifier may be best - the fuel at the truck-stops, with federally-mandated plastic storage tanks, doesn't stay in the tanks long enuff for bacteria to form, and plastic doesn't rust, so the clean water doesn't cause problems in the quantities they may see - fuel doesn't stay in their tractor tanks very long, either.

For the passenger vehicle and the small commercial vehicle, which may fuel-up at that back street stop-and-rob where there is seldom anyone at the Diesel pump, and the fuel may be in the highly-questionable underground tanks for no telling how long, a demulsifier is best.

And, those two points are why we get WIF modules on our vehicles, and the big boys do not - for those that have questioned such a waste of money.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:52 pm

Nearly all the OTR rigs we build have a Davco filter/water separator unit mounted on the rail, and most of those have this nice automatic water drain built in. No need for a WIF light when the separator unit will dump the water on cue all by it's lonesome.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:49 pm

Never seen a davco with the auto-dump feature on it, just hand valves. I would think the engine would die if you opened up a davco with the engine running as it would suck air in.

alclubb · **Posted:** Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:57 am

I have been using PowerService in the grey bottle for a couple of years, but is there one on the market that some of you use that you think is better? I don't have a station handy that sells biodiesel. Thanks.

Study on lube in diesel fuel.....

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