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 Post subject: TheTruthAboutCars.com Reviews the Liberty Renegade
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:00 am 
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Yesterday I read a review of the Jeep Liberty on The Truth About Cars Web page. The reviewer, Johnny Lieberman, did not thrash the Jeep as badly as I would have expected from a car publication that has such a heavy on-road / track bias. I was difficult for me to tell whether the article was new or a recycled old critique. The dateline indicated that it was a current review but the pictures that accompanied the article were of an ’03 or ’04 Renegade. I think the article is relatively current since the author compared the fog lights to KC lamps, which sounds like the bumper-mounted fog lights that Jeep started putting on the ‘05 Renegades (continued on the ’06 model as well).

The author quoted Enzo Ferrari who said that Jeep was, “America’s only real sports car.” As ironic as it sounds there is a lot of truth in this statement. Jeep’s high-torque engines provide instant low-end power and their suspensions are world class for travel and articulation. Like the Italian exotics, Jeep’s are all about sport and fun and performance within their respective realms: Ferrari’s on pavement and Jeep’s in the dirt.

Lieberman thrashes the Renegade’s interior. He compares the fake leather and carbon fiber plastics to mats found under sinks at Taco Bell. Whatever that means, it is not a compliment. I think most Jeep guys would recognize that unlike most on-road centric vehicles that the choice of these materials is not because Jeep is being necessarily cheap but because they know that the interior of the Liberty has a higher likelihood to be exposed to damaging elements such as dust, mud, snow and water. The surfaces are meant to resist this kind of abuse and to be easily cleanable.

The author also criticizes the Liberty’s driving position as too cramped and that the foot well lacks a dead pedal for the driver to rest his left foot on. I somewhat agree with this criticism, although my Liberty does have a dead pedal. The space is perfect for me (6' tall) as long as the seat is all the way back but if I were much taller it would be a problem. My biggest complaint is the lack of lumbar support.

Finally, Lieberman criticizes Liberty’s acceleration as being too slow and the ride feeling like being on top of a malfunctioning washing machine. As for the acceleration, if find it wholly adequate for normal driving. I really love the fact that under full load and with the drag of luggage on the safari rack up top that the Jeep can maintain highway speeds going up major inclines. I recently read a review of the Honda CRV and the reviewer observed that the large Honda I4 engine could not do the same. This is one of the reasons why I stopped considering the CRV, Toyota RAV4 and other smaller SUVs – because I wanted the Liberty’s V6 torque. I did not buy the Jeep to race it. I did buy it to haul heavy loads.

The ride criticism is too subjective to address. Some reviewers criticize the Liberty’s ride as too stiff and others for it being too soft. My wife thinks the ride is too harsh when driving over bumps at slow speeds. It is, but I am grateful that same stiffness when cornering at higher speeds. I don’t imagine that there is a worse feeling than thinking that your car is going to roll onto its side while cornering at 60 mph because it is leaning so much. The Liberty does not feel so tippy and top heavy as other vehicles of its height. That said, I have toyed with the notion of removing the rear sway bar before any prolonged off-road driving.

On the positive side the Lieberman praised the Liberty for being… a Jeep. To his amazement it pulled him out of a quagmire after he “sank the Liberty to its doors in mud” thanks low-gearing, plenty of engine torque and the “suspension geometry’s massive articulation,” which he said never let him down. In conclusion, Lieberman wrote:

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The new Jeep Liberty Renegade is the real deal: a genuine mud-plugger with, um, limited on-road acumen. Despite the SUV feeding frenzy of the last decade or so, only the Renegade’s Wrangler stable mate and Nissan's pricier Xterra can claim this level of off-road authenticity. Saturn Vue? Toyota Rav4? Ford Escape? Land Rover Freelander? BMW X3? Posers. No low gears means no sale for consumers who buy their SUVs for their intended purpose-- or the bragging rights derived there from. On broken, mangled or mushy paths, roads where no Italian vehicle would dare tread, the Jeep Liberty Renegade is an F430 at the Nürburgring. The Liberty may be a bit woosy and disjointed around the edges, but it’s still a Jeep. ‘Nuff said.


Now that reads like something that I would have written.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:27 am 
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Liberty’s driving position as too cramped and that the foot well lacks a dead pedal for the driver to rest his left foot on.


Totally agree with this part. Liberty's definitely need a dead pedal for the left foot, particularly on the stick shift models.

In addition, the driver's area is a bit awkward. I don't like that I can't see the traffic light when I stop at an intersection. I'm not tall (5'9") but I still have to crouch down to see the signals. They sit you up way too high in my opinion. Not the most comfortable driving position either.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:28 am 
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heh. yea a foot rest would be nice. the seats are hard to explain, sometimes they are great and sometimes im like John Candy in planes trains driving down the road with one hand on the power switch and just cant get comfy. when i went on a trail run it was great, as long as i sit up high the seats rock. if i relax too much they are hell. only complaint about off-road was after the 8 hour day i had a foot cramp :P

ps, i thought my leather was real corinthian leather... doh.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:11 pm 
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Haha, thats a funny write-up. He said it does what I bought it for, so I guess Im good. Dont know how he got it out of mud with those tires though. :?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:53 pm 
ShoreRenegade wrote:
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Liberty’s driving position as too cramped and that the foot well lacks a dead pedal for the driver to rest his left foot on.


Totally agree with this part. Liberty's definitely need a dead pedal for the left foot, particularly on the stick shift models.

In addition, the driver's area is a bit awkward. I don't like that I can't see the traffic light when I stop at an intersection. I'm not tall (5'9") but I still have to crouch down to see the signals. They sit you up way too high in my opinion. Not the most comfortable driving position either.


The dead pedal is a deal breaker for tall drivers. I'm 6'9" and the extra foot space feels great. I'm ready to cut out the dead pedal on my sienna minivan...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:54 pm 
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The seats could use some work...i'm 6' and agree with Black_Dog, as long as i have the seat pretty far back, i can get reletively comfortable. I like the high riding position, but it would be unbearable if i was any taller. My weekend driver is one of those cars that Lieberman would appreciate, and it has plenty of its own comfort shortcomings. The suspension is very stiff, which handles great but can be painful at times on anything less than the smoothest roads. I'm adjusting for a comfortable seat position more often in that than my KJ. Actually, the most comfortable seats i've been in lately are my g/f's '98 subaru outback.

Haven't made a run for the border in a while, but i wouldn't mind a little more quality in the interior, at least in the limited editions. Its not so much the plastics, i know a jeep needs to be rugged, its more the way things fit together. The plastic panels under the dash on driver and passenger side started to sag, and my center console is loose. I've gone back and tightened things up, but its something i didnt expect in a less than year old vehicle.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:07 pm 
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Lieberman said "the fake leather seats" in his critique??? Didn't know there was any option except cloth or (real) leather........

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:27 pm 
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The dead pedal is an issue for short drivers too. I didn't know where to put my left foot after driving my Silverado. I end up resting it under the left edge of the break pedal frequently.

The CRD is a sports car. Lots of torque. Oh and it is Itallian.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:23 am 
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I clicked around that site some beyond the Liberty review. Man...they sure do stroke the Xterra crowd! Granted, the Nissan is a capable vehicle (IMHO) but the whole tone of the review for the Xterra reads like the diary entry of a school girl with a crush while the Liberty review seems almost begrudging.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:02 am 
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Even the "professional" critics just can't admit Libbys a good thing. Why? Because when they take it out to "Research and road test" they are looking at it in the wrong light. They look upon it as a grocery getter, a kid bus, and a daily business driver, not as Jeep. Now....if they were to look upon it as Jeep, before they even got into it, their reviews would be entirely different. Probably a little more glowing, "Just as good if not better than wrangler" I saw in an article in my local paper.

If not better?? Yep, because you have four doors, A/C, huge cargo capacity...etc etc etc. So as soon as the "professionals" start to look up the Liberty as a proper capable Jeep, these silly reviews about how it rides and the types of interiors that are chosen, will be a thing of the past.......problem is, they won't stop looking at it as anything other than Acura SUV or counterpart.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:09 pm 
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zeero wrote:
Even the "professional" critics just can't admit Libbys a good thing. Why? Because when they take it out to "Research and road test" they are looking at it in the wrong light. They look upon it as a grocery getter, a kid bus, and a daily business driver, not as Jeep. Now....if they were to look upon it as Jeep, before they even got into it, their reviews would be entirely different. Probably a little more glowing, "Just as good if not better than wrangler" I saw in an article in my local paper.

If not better?? Yep, because you have four doors, A/C, huge cargo capacity...etc etc etc. So as soon as the "professionals" start to look up the Liberty as a proper capable Jeep, these silly reviews about how it rides and the types of interiors that are chosen, will be a thing of the past.......problem is, they won't stop looking at it as anything other than Acura SUV or counterpart.


Amen, brother!!

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 Post subject: Re: TheTruthAboutCars.com Reviews the Liberty Renegade
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:44 am 
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Black_Dog wrote:
As for the acceleration, if find it wholly adequate for normal driving. I really love the fact that under full load and with the drag of luggage on the safari rack up top that the Jeep can maintain highway speeds going up major inclines
Yeah but try that at 7000+ feet and you will have a different story...of course you would with any car...but here in Colorado it's a common thing. In the users manual they also recommend using mid-grade or higher octane if you will be using it in the mountains...I definitely agree with this assessment. I found the acceleration extremely sluggish on the uphills the one time I had the low grade gas and went into the mountains. When I'm around town (about 5300 ft) I find the acceleration to be fine. But it is relatively flat terrain in town. When I go to the mountains I fill up with mid grade or high test if I have a good amount of the low grade still in the tank. It definitely perfoms better on the steep Colorado grades with higher octane.

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 Post subject: Re: TheTruthAboutCars.com Reviews the Liberty Renegade
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:52 am 
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Kugellager wrote:
Yeah but try that at 7000+ feet and you will have a different story...of course you would with any car...but here in Colorado it's a common thing. In the users manual they also recommend using mid-grade or higher octane if you will be using it in the mountains...I definitely agree with this assessment. I found the acceleration extremely sluggish on the uphills the one time I had the low grade gas and went into the mountains. When I'm around town (about 5300 ft) I find the acceleration to be fine. But it is relatively flat terrain in town. When I go to the mountains I fill up with mid grade or high test if I have a good amount of the low grade still in the tank. It definitely perfoms better on the steep Colorado grades with higher octane.

John
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True, but compared to the other vehicles in the Liberty’s size/classification such as a RAV4, CRV, etc.??

Years ago when I lived in Utah I used to struggle to get over 6,000-7,000 foot passes in my old ’87 Toyota Camry. Even around town at 4,000-4,500 feet the car felt significantly impaired – like I was hauling a couple of NFL linebackers in my back seat – compared to how it ran in my home town of San Antonio, TX (elevation about 600’). Back then Toyota had a high-altitude kit that could be installed in the Fuel Injector to change the air/fuel mixture to help things out. I never had one installed. I wonder if Jeep makes something like that to help you out.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:20 am 
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i agree with the dead pedal thing, but unfortunately im in a iffy situation with MYSELF about that. I love the fact that I can stretch my leg all the way out to full lock because there is no dead pedal, but I only need to stretch it occasionally. When I'm resting it, my knee leans against the door. Something tells me that after a while there's gonna be a spot on the fake texture finish on the door from wear/sweat that's gonna make that spot smooth.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:20 am 
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I believe (and I am not sure of this) but vehicles bought in Colorado are already set up for high altitude.

Maybe another member from Colorado has better info on this.

I know we do have lower octane gas up here...and they even have lower octane in the ski areas. The lower oxygen compensates for the faster burning low-octane gas. Typical Denver elevation octane ratings are 91/87/85. In the mountains I believe it is 89/85/83 if i'm not mistaken.

John
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