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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:33 pm 
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group buy thread started:

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... 2968#92968


Looks like we've got the minimum order of 3 already. POST POST!

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 Post subject: Re: Materials Lab 101
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:47 am 
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"It's been years since my engineering materials science courses! Does a collar really help? It sounds like these are failing due to interior stress/heat as opposed to external contact. It seems like a collar may make the crack smaller, but wouldn't due much for hairline fractures and impending doom. I left the engineering world for medicine, but I'll chat with some friends on this one."


Jeepin Al wrote:
The alum, can not be stressed as steel can, especiallyif it cast allum. It does fatigue, and will eventually break. I seen this in the old motorcycle engines I played with when I was younger. Due to the oils and heat, they get brittle. Next comes the action of the gears. When the power is aplied to the gear set, the pinion wants to back off the ring gear. The ring gear is held fast by two very large bearing (compared to the pinion) and doesn't move. Most of us believe that the pinion gear backs out against the thin area holding the bearing pushing the pinion shaft and bearing outwards towards the rear of the housing cracking the housing thru the thin tail section. Once this happens, a repeted load will crack it further, as seen in the picture.

The collar should prevent the intial crack from forming, hopefully.

Al



Well, I suppose I am an idiot raining on everone's parade... but I don't see that this collar will save anyone from having to buy a new diff case. What it may do, if you check the affected area as a part of your preflight/postflight- is get you home without exploding the diff.

Aluminum, unlike steel, stress fractures. Put a piece of steel under duress, but not past its strength point, and no permanent damage occurs. Not so with aluminum. Each time you impact it- it leaves a permanent (usually microscopic) stress fracture. When enough of these fractures line up-- a crack forms. Aluminum products are designed with this in mind-- enough stress fractures should not develop to cause failure within the usefull life of the product. But the product does have a usefull life and it cannot be used past it. Take aluminum wheels-- they were originally only waranteed for a few years, even for on road use. With better technology-- that waranty is now longer. For off-roading-- aluminum wheels still have a definate life time. Use them past it and your wheel is subject to failing catastrophically. Same with aluminum mountain bikes and aircraft. Aluminum aircraft parts (including the airframe) must be taken in every so-many flight hours and x-rayed to determine the amount of stress fractures. If too many fractures are found, that part of the airframe must be replaced before the aircraft is found flight worthy. When these FAR checks are not done properly (think Aloha Airlines)-- then the planes airframe is subject to fall apart mid flight.

This differential cover is basically the Aloha Airlines flight where the airframe failed. Somebody at Dana goofed and did not take into account that the pinion backing out against this cover at the case seam would cause a repetative stress fracture resulting in premature product failure. What we basically have is someone taking a chisel and hitting this point every time the gears are under torque and the wheels lockup against something. Since the collar is on the outside, it will not stop the "chisel" from hitting the aluminum-- thus, it will not stop the stress fracture from occuring. You can think of spinning and locking the tires under load on this diff like you can of using an aluminum soda can's pop top-- it is good for so many flexes before it breaks in half. The steel collar may slow the crack's spreading (and allow you to avoid explonding the diff gears on the trail) by absorbing some of the pressure from the pinion and not allowing it be used to spread the crack. The collar will not, however, stop the crack from happening.

At least that is my take on it, good luck.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:17 am 
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That's why I haven't put my name in the hat. I had a thought similar to that. You will still crack it. Maybe not AS soon as it would have but it will regardless and the collar just keeps it from busting apart completely and giving you a chance to drive home or to the nearest auto shop.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:40 am 
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Tokyojoe wrote:
...and the collar just keeps it from busting apart completely and giving you a chance to drive home or to the nearest auto shop.


It's that worth $72? If you can avoid a towtruck, not to mention one from the trail, isn't that worth $72?

I'm hoping that if it cracks, that the ring will keep it together somewhat. Maybe it'll even keep it together enough so that I'll see fluid dripping SLOWLY and I'll be able to drive it all the way home for repairs!

How hard is it to pull the driveshafts, and I guess also the axles, so that we can drive home on the highway in 2wd? Can that be done?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:00 am 
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I think the advantage of having one is that is acts like a "rib" that is normally present when casting aluminum to add strength. The collar is "EVE's" extra rib and we all know how tuff a woman can be. :P

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:13 am 
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DarbyWalters wrote:
... The collar is "EVE's" extra rib and we all know how tuff a woman can be. :P


Eve was created from one of Adam's ribs. My name being Adam, believe me when I tell you it hurts giving up something for a woman! ;-)

And if I can get back that rib for $72, I'm in! :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:27 am 
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Has anyone looked into replacing the aluminum diff with one made of steel?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:02 pm 
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One of the guys at the NJJC has a Grand front end, he is going to give me. Its a stell pumpkin with a alum. axel housing on the one side like the Liberty. The only problem is it is not a DANA but a AME (?) corporate axel, he thinks it is close to the 8.25 (Its in mm). I am going to take a look at that on. Only prblem, no locker or gear changes are available at this point.

Once I get the parts from Wally (hint hint) I will see if I can get that Dana 44 working.

Al

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:09 pm 
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Oh MAN that looks nice and strong. Where is the aluminum part that you mentioned?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:02 pm 
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Disclaimer: I am not a materials scientist or engineer, nor do I play one on TV. I believe the aluminum diff housing is perfectly adequate in handling the rigors of curbs at the mall parking lot.

Before placing an order for the collar, I spent a long lunch over a bowl of soup looking at the photo of the cracked diff. My layperson conclusion about DC engineering was "Those sensored word, they killed Kenny!" I came up with several materials failure scenarios from what I could see in the photo. In one, the stress riser is at the 90 degree junction of the shaft input circle, with the diff house bowl, at the casting seam on the circle, whether the shaft input circle went oval or not. I don't imagine an added collar ring would prevent this. The crack propagated across the housing bowl, and across the reinforcement (or cooling?) ribs, and notably also along the shaft input circle's 90 degree radius with the bowl, and back outward along the casting seam on the input circle.

I'm hopeful that the added collar will keep things together for the drive back down the trail.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:17 pm 
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Look at how beefy the steel diff is at the ends. It's basically got a collar built in!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:41 pm 
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AdamIsAdam wrote:
Oh MAN that looks nice and strong. Where is the aluminum part that you mentioned?


Thats what I'm talking about! The 44! Thats what we need a mounting option for! Somebody's gotta be able to fab up some mounting brackets that can be welded onto that thing, no?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:12 pm 
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AdamIsAdam wrote:
Image

Image


Look at how beefy the steel diff is at the ends. It's basically got a collar built in!




Doesn't look like it would fit in there. I guess with some ingenuity and if you stay at a Holiday Inn, you could do anything.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:58 pm 
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I guess with some ingenuity and if you stay at a Holiday Inn, you could do anything

:-)r :lol:

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 Post subject: Collar helping
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:50 am 
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Did not mean to sound like I was bashing, I will eventually get a collar myself. But it seems if this many people are willing to go in on a group buy for a steel collar, maybe we could solicit a group buy from someone for a full steel replacement? What else is the 30a used in? Maybe we should find out and see if we could find more folk to get a petition going. If the number is high enough, someone will make a new cover.

Last time I was in the dealer, two Libby's in with failed lower ball joints and one in with a grenaded front diff-- all covered by warranty, fortunately.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:56 am 
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For the record, the group buy is for an aluminum collar. We changed from steel to aluminum to avoid mixing metals.

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 Post subject: Re: Collar helping
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:56 am 
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Pablo wrote:
Did not mean to sound like I was bashing, I will eventually get a collar myself. But it seems if this many people are willing to go in on a group buy for a steel collar, maybe we could solicit a group buy from someone for a full steel replacement? What else is the 30a used in? Maybe we should find out and see if we could find more folk to get a petition going. If the number is high enough, someone will make a new cover.

Last time I was in the dealer, two Libby's in with failed lower ball joints and one in with a grenaded front diff-- all covered by warranty, fortunately.


Honestly man. DC could care less, they already got your money. The engineers and DC know about the problem, but nothing has been done. Just look at all the new reported ball join failures (~500), that is a huge safety issue and DC is still denying half the peoples warranty claims and hasn't improve the ball joint design.

Actually, it is not the cover that fails. It is the whole differential housing that fails.


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