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| LSD and ESP http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18135 |
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| Author: | AndySRT [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | LSD and ESP |
I know people have talked about lockers and ESP but has anyone tried a LSD and ESP. think it would have any affect on the ESP. |
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| Author: | Jeger [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I have been waiting to see someone try this, if I had the money I would have done it already. I think a LSD would work beautifully with the 4wheel traction control that we have. You hear people say that the detroit tru-trac will act "like" a locker if you just apply a little brake pressure when you lift a tire. With traction control this would happen automatically, you get the added traction of the LSD preload + the torque transfer of the Traction control. And to top it off, you dont get the detrimental effect of braking both/all wheels like you do with the brake trick. And an LSD should not interfere with the workings of the other parts of the ESP system since it allow the tires to turn at different speeds anyhow. |
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| Author: | FastTRX [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:48 pm ] |
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Can someone please explain LSD a little better for me? I'm sorta picking up on what you're saying...but whats the difference between a locker and LSD? I new to the whole locker thing and I'd like to know more... Thanks guys |
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| Author: | Jeger [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:32 pm ] |
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http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm http://www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm Basically with a locker both wheels will spin at the same speed while under power even if one of those wheels is off of the ground. A limited slip will allow one tire to turn faster than the other, but transfers more torque to the wheel with more available traction than an open differential does. |
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| Author: | sleeve84028 [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:42 pm ] |
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Or in simple terms: (at least I think they are simple) LSD is the best application for on-road driving because it will activate when you need it but still allow you to turn corners. LOCKER means that the tires are completely locked together all the time. Racing applications or Off-Road applications You can get an air locker or electronic locker that you can turn off for street driving |
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| Author: | FastTRX [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Jeger wrote: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm
http://www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm Basically with a locker both wheels will spin at the same speed while under power even if one of those wheels is off of the ground. A limited slip will allow one tire to turn faster than the other, but transfers more torque to the wheel with more available traction than an open differential does. Ok I understand now. I think I may have confused an open diff with LSD...glad I know the difference now. Now its to my knowledge the newer KJs are availiable w/ an LSD rear end?? Or is that an aftermarket option? Thanks Jeger and Sleeve84028. I knew what a "locker" was...just kinda wanted to know what was the difference. I'd like to add an air locker on my rig in the future. |
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| Author: | Jeepjeepster [ Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
sleeve84028 wrote: Or in simple terms: (at least I think they are simple)
LSD is the best application for on-road driving because it will activate when you need it but still allow you to turn corners. LOCKER means that the tires are completely locked together all the time. Racing applications or Off-Road applications You can get an air locker or electronic locker that you can turn off for street driving The powertrax No-Slip unlocks in the turns. Its not true that lockers are locked ALL the time. |
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| Author: | Jeger [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Jeepjeepster wrote: sleeve84028 wrote: Or in simple terms: (at least I think they are simple) LSD is the best application for on-road driving because it will activate when you need it but still allow you to turn corners. LOCKER means that the tires are completely locked together all the time. Racing applications or Off-Road applications You can get an air locker or electronic locker that you can turn off for street driving The powertrax No-Slip unlocks in the turns. Its not true that lockers are locked ALL the time. Right....that would be a Spool. Or welded spider gears. |
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| Author: | sleeve84028 [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Here are a couple links for you to read up on further: Eaton Posi Trac (LSD) = http://www.eatonperformance.com/differe ... i-lsd.html From their website: "The Eaton Posi LSD prevents wheel slip before it can get started. To do that, carbon disc clutch packs, preloaded by a central spring assembly, are located behind each differential side gear. When torque input increases the clamping load on the clutch packs increases. That causes the chatter-free clutch packs to grab and transfer power to the other wheel. Muscle cars, hot rods and mild off-road vehicles should look to Eaton's limited-slip differential for their traction answers. And the fact is, Eaton's Posi units are virtually bullet proof." Eaton E-Locker = http://www.eatonperformance.com/differe ... ocker.html From their website: "Designed expressly for 4-wheel drive systems to give you the ability to lock or unlock the differentials when necessary. When locked the Eaton ELocker performs as a full locker, capturing 100% of available torque and sending it equally to both ends of the axle. The ELocker is built with precision-forged gears that are designed to mesh perfectly, providing improved strength and durability over a standard cut gear. Its ease of installation, reliability and push-button activation make ELocker an absolute must for all traction and off-road performance applications." Detroit TrueTac (from Eaton) = http://www.eatonperformance.com/differe ... etrac.html From their website: "Engineered to work efficiently in front and rear axles, semi-floating (C-clip axles) and transfer cases. Power transfer is so smooth, it literally goes unnoticed by the driver - even in front wheel drive axles. Proven design, low cost and effective performance, all make the Detroit Truetrac limited slip differential the ideal choice for a wide variety of vehicle applications. No maintenance - Just Traction!" Now: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential4.htm "Clutch-type Limited Slip Differential" The clutch-type LSD is probably the most common version of the limited slip differential. This type of LSD has all of the same components as an open differential, but it adds a spring pack and a set of clutches. Some of these have a cone clutch that is just like the synchronizers in a manual transmission. The spring pack pushes the side gears against the clutches, which are attached to the cage. Both side gears spin with the cage when both wheels are moving at the same speed, and the clutches aren't really needed -- the only time the clutches step in is when something happens to make one wheel spin faster than the other, as in a turn. The clutches fight this behavior, wanting both wheels to go the same speed. If one wheel wants to spin faster than the other, it must first overpower the clutch. The stiffness of the springs combined with the friction of the clutch determine how much torque it takes to overpower it. Getting back to the situation in which one drive wheel is on the ice and the other one has good traction: With this limited slip differential, even though the wheel on the ice is not able to transmit much torque to the ground, the other wheel will still get the torque it needs to move. The torque supplied to the wheel not on the ice is equal to the amount of torque it takes to overpower the clutches. The result is that you can move forward, although still not with the full power of your car. "Locking and TorsenĀ®" The locking differential is useful for serious off-road vehicles. This type of differential has the same parts as an open differential, but adds an electric, pneumatic or hydraulic mechanism to lock the two output pinions together. This mechanism is usually activated manually by switch, and when activated, both wheels will spin at the same speed. If one wheel ends up off the ground, the other wheel won't know or care. Both wheels will continue to spin at the same speed as if nothing had changed. The Torsen differential* is a purely mechanical device; it has no electronics, clutches or viscous fluids. The Torsen (from Torque Sensing) works as an open differential when the amount of torque going to each wheel is equal. As soon as one wheel starts to lose traction, the difference in torque causes the gears in the Torsen differential to bind together. The design of the gears in the differential determines the torque bias ratio. For instance, if a particular Torsen differential is designed with a 5:1 bias ratio, it is capable of applying up to five times more torque to the wheel that has good traction. These devices are often used in high-performance all-wheel-drive vehicles. Like the viscous coupling, they are often used to transfer power between the front and rear wheels. In this application, the Torsen is superior to the viscous coupling because it transfers torque to the stable wheels before the actual slipping occurs. However, if one set of wheels loses traction completely, the Torsen differential will be unable to supply any torque to the other set of wheels. The bias ratio determines how much torque can be transferred, and five times zero is zero. |
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| Author: | KJ Taz [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Jeger wrote: Jeepjeepster wrote: sleeve84028 wrote: Or in simple terms: (at least I think they are simple) LSD is the best application for on-road driving because it will activate when you need it but still allow you to turn corners. LOCKER means that the tires are completely locked together all the time. Racing applications or Off-Road applications You can get an air locker or electronic locker that you can turn off for street driving The powertrax No-Slip unlocks in the turns. Its not true that lockers are locked ALL the time. Right....that would be a Spool. Or welded spider gears. This depends on the type of locker you are talking about. A lunch box type like you are talking about are far different from a selectable. A selectable is locked untill you unlock it, acts like a spool. A powertrax locks up under load. |
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| Author: | Jeger [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
So an ARB air locker acts like a spool when activated? 'Learn something new every day |
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| Author: | KJ Taz [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Jeger wrote: So an ARB air locker acts like a spool when activated?
'Learn something new every day Yep they won't unlock till they either break or you turn them off. Even the crappy air lockers in my Rubi are totally locked until you unlock them. It is a very nice feature. Weaker than a full spool though but works the same once engaged. Back on the subject though, in my Liberty I am very curious to see if someone has used an LSD with the traction control. It seems like it would be a great set up. I am not looking to lock it up as thats not my intended use for the Jeep. |
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| Author: | wendell [ Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
It's true, the tru-trac will operate like a locker with a little brake presure if you get a wheel off the ground. I've had to do it a couple of times on the ranger, works like a charm. Should work extremely well with the traction control system, at least in theory ha ha. |
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