Better Brakes.

breakerbacker · **Joined:** Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:23 pm **Posts:** 76

Jeep liberty brakes are pretty bad from the factory. I ran across EBC yellow stuff pads for the front, green stuff for the rear, along with slotted rotors front and rear. I wonder if these would actually make some improvement.

http://www.carjunky.com/partstore/buy.p ... ke_code=JP
http://www.carjunky.com/partstore/buy.p ... ke_code=JP

I am familiar with EBC pads and they are pretty good for sports cars. I am not to sure about using them on a truck.

Anybody care to chime in on these.

Greg

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:06 pm

slotted rotors would probably make the braking worse since there is less surface area for the pads.

Ceramics or Metallic pads would be good.

welby · **Posted:** Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:43 pm

I've used EBC brake components on my sport quads for a while now and they're a good product. I've never used them on a truck either. IMO ceramic pads are only good for one thing; less dust. For performance carbon/carbon-metalic is the way to go. That or EBC's high-end pads(Green and Yellow) that tend to use Kevlar in place of carbon. Kevlar gives slightly better initial braking and a fraction of the dust.

Agree with JeepJeepster on the rotors. Less surface material, less heat transfer, as metal does transfer heat better than air, and they are prone to cracks. I stick with a good quality vented or vaned rotor and carbon-metalic pads.

myjeepwalks · **Posted:** Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:38 pm

welby wrote:

I've used EBC brake components on my sport quads for a while now and they're a good product. I've never used them on a truck either. IMO ceramic pads are only good for one thing; less dust. For performance carbon/carbon-metalic is the way to go. That or EBC's high-end pads(Green and Yellow) that tend to use Kevlar in place of carbon. Kevlar gives slightly better initial braking and a fraction of the dust.

Agree with JeepJeepster on the rotors. Less surface material, less heat transfer, as metal does transfer heat better than air, and they are prone to cracks. I stick with a good quality vented or vaned rotor and carbon-metalic pads.

I've had EBC Green Stuff pads before on a bmw with power slot rotors. The car would stop on a dime. Several times i've done heavy braking @ 100mph with absolutely no brake fade.

As for quality slotted rotors they will dissapate more heat due the slots. Under very heavy braking the extreme heat can cause the pads to vaporize. The slots let the excess gas out. I'm not makeing this up, this is straight from powerslot.com. I think the rotors would be overkill on a liberty but the pads couldn't hurt. When i'm due for front pads i'm going with ebc green stuff. The rears stock because i have drum brakes out back.

welby · **Posted:** Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:23 pm

myjeepwalks wrote:

I've had EBC Green Stuff pads before on a bmw with power slot rotors. The car would stop on a dime. Several times i've done heavy braking @ 100mph with absolutely no brake fade.

As for quality slotted rotors they will dissapate more heat due the slots. Under very heavy braking the extreme heat can cause the pads to vaporize. The slots let the excess gas out. I'm not makeing this up, this is straight from powerslot.com. I think the rotors would be overkill on a liberty but the pads couldn't hurt. When i'm due for front pads i'm going with ebc green stuff. The rears stock because i have drum brakes out back.

I don't doubt that they braked well, I also don't doubt that Powerslot.com claims that their product works very well. The fact is that metal transfers more heat than air does, and when you lessen the volume of metal on the rotor the less material there is to transfer heat. Also there is less surface area making contact with the pad meaning less overall friction and less braking. Most performance pads come with a groove in the center of them which does the same thing as a slotted rotor will do without losing rotor material or causing extra pad wear, which is what happens when the pad runs across the edge of a slot or hole in drilled/slotted rotors. I'm not making this up either.

USAFCOP · **Posted:** Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:32 pm

I have been running the powerslots and green pads for 3 years, great improvement over stock, but then again, I still have drums in the rear that really suck. I need to change my brake fluid too, but the powerslots improved my stopping ability to the point that I was locking them up when I applied the same presure I had previously applied for the stock brakes. Makes a big difference for towing as well, as with my factory brakes and old trailer, it took forever and was scarey to stop, with powerslots, it was no problem. BTW, wear was not the issue, I replaced my front rotors and pads with 65% life left, so I kept them as emergency back ups.

myjeepwalks · **Posted:** Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:00 pm

welby wrote:

myjeepwalks wrote:

I've had EBC Green Stuff pads before on a bmw with power slot rotors. The car would stop on a dime. Several times i've done heavy braking @ 100mph with absolutely no brake fade.

As for quality slotted rotors they will dissapate more heat due the slots. Under very heavy braking the extreme heat can cause the pads to vaporize. The slots let the excess gas out. I'm not makeing this up, this is straight from powerslot.com. I think the rotors would be overkill on a liberty but the pads couldn't hurt. When i'm due for front pads i'm going with ebc green stuff. The rears stock because i have drum brakes out back.

I don't doubt that they braked well, I also don't doubt that Powerslot.com claims that their product works very well. The fact is that metal transfers more heat than air does, and when you lessen the volume of metal on the rotor the less material there is to transfer heat. Also there is less surface area making contact with the pad meaning less overall friction and less braking. Most performance pads come with a groove in the center of them which does the same thing as a slotted rotor will do without losing rotor material or causing extra pad wear, which is what happens when the pad runs across the edge of a slot or hole in drilled/slotted rotors. I'm not making this up either.

I'm not getting in an internet pissing match here. I'm just stating i had powerslot rotors and ebc pads and the car stopped on a dime. Much improvement over stock. But if the slotted rotors have less surface area, making less contact with the pads, meaning less overall friction, resulting in less braking like you say. How come the car stopped alot better? These parts are designed for better performance not less. If my liberty was a high performance street machine or if i used it for towing, i'd upgrade. For my application the stock brakes are fine. I will upgrade to ebc's when i need front brakes again and i'll use stock rotors.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:05 pm

Just like USAFCOP I have been running PowerSlot rotors and Napa ceramic pads.With my KJ wieghing over 5000lbs and running steel rims with 265/75 MT/R's my braking sucked really bad.When I switched to powerslots and ceramic pads my KJ stops like stock now.I also have rear drum breaks also.The slots in the powerslots are for the excaping superheated gases caused by the friction between the pads and rotors which results in better cooling and pad contact to the rotor.

sleeve84028 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:47 am

Instead of retyping my reply - I'm just going to link you over to this thread from last year about brakes.

For those of us too lazy to click on the link and read the thread... I am copying what I wrote below

Quote:

I don't know if there are any brake upgrades out there for the Jeep (I haven't looked to be honest) but here is what I think about brakes:

The best way to increase your stopping power is to help dissipate the heat that is generated by the brake system when it's called upon to slow your Liberty down. All brake systems function by using friction to slow a vehicle down. The by-product of friction is heat. The generated heat reduces the coeffecient of friction between the brake pad and rotor and thus, your loss of brake performance. So the only real way to increase the amount of heat dissipation is by increasing the diameter of your rotor (larger swept area = greater heat dissipation.) or adding cooling ducts at the front of your vehicle. increasing rotor size is where things get expensive, because you have to change the caliper mounting points, then buy new rotors and possibly the calipers to fit over the rotors....

The only thing you can do to improve the brakes without spending tons of money:

1.) Change the pads from OEM style materials to ceramic (better heat resistance = less brake fade = repeatable stopping)

Some people think that slotted / drilled rotors will help decrease the stopping distance, but this is a common misconception. A slotted rotor only gives brake dust a place to accumulate but doesn't increase the cooling performance or increase the swept area of the rotor thus no change in brake performance. A drilled rotor does give heat a place to go, but at the same time reduces the amount of swept area on the rotor which typically negates any benefits that you could realize from the drilled rotors. I personally think drilled / slotted rotors are mostly for bling....

BVCRD · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:30 am

sleeve84028 wrote:

Instead of retyping my reply - I'm just going to link you over to this thread from last year about brakes.

For those of us too lazy to click on the link and read the thread... I am copying what I wrote below

Quote:

I don't know if there are any brake upgrades out there for the Jeep (I haven't looked to be honest) but here is what I think about brakes:

The best way to increase your stopping power is to help dissipate the heat that is generated by the brake system when it's called upon to slow your Liberty down. All brake systems function by using friction to slow a vehicle down. The by-product of friction is heat. The generated heat reduces the coeffecient of friction between the brake pad and rotor and thus, your loss of brake performance. So the only real way to increase the amount of heat dissipation is by increasing the diameter of your rotor (larger swept area = greater heat dissipation.) or adding cooling ducts at the front of your vehicle. increasing rotor size is where things get expensive, because you have to change the caliper mounting points, then buy new rotors and possibly the calipers to fit over the rotors....

The only thing you can do to improve the brakes without spending tons of money:

1.) Change the pads from OEM style materials to ceramic (better heat resistance = less brake fade = repeatable stopping)

Some people think that slotted / drilled rotors will help decrease the stopping distance, but this is a common misconception. A slotted rotor only gives brake dust a place to accumulate but doesn't increase the cooling performance or increase the swept area of the rotor thus no change in brake performance. A drilled rotor does give heat a place to go, but at the same time reduces the amount of swept area on the rotor which typically negates any benefits that you could realize from the drilled rotors. I personally think drilled / slotted rotors are mostly for bling....

My tech screamed at me when I said the "C" word concerning pads. He was way against it. He said they do but them on some cars as a downgrade from the Jeeps OEM pads at the customers request.

sleeve84028 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:53 am

Was it a dealer tech? A ceramic pad will do very well for daily driving.

1) Greater initial bite for those panic stops
2) Almost zero brake dust
3) They last just as long, if not longer than a regular MOPAR pad
4) They are a lot cheaper (when doing the brakes yourself) when you compare to a dealer price

But to be fair here let us also consider the negatives. Since a ceramic pad is so good at rejecting heat while braking there is a good chance you can wrap the rotor if you really need to "lay into" the brake pedal one good time. You see since the pad rejects most of the generated heat; it has to go somewhere right? Well it is sent into the rotor. So if you are on the brakes for a long time, there is a good chance you can wrap the rotors as the tiny little Liberty rotor is only capable of dissipating so much heat energy.

So when considering new brakes - look beyond the marketing into the science and weigh, both the positives and negatives

BVCRD · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:38 am

sleeve84028 wrote:

Was it a dealer tech? A ceramic pad will do very well for daily driving.

1) Greater initial bite for those panic stops
2) Almost zero brake dust
3) They last just as long, if not longer than a regular MOPAR pad
4) They are a lot cheaper (when doing the brakes yourself) when you compare to a dealer price

But to be fair here let us also consider the negatives. Since a ceramic pad is so good at rejecting heat while braking there is a good chance you can wrap the rotor if you really need to "lay into" the brake pedal one good time. You see since the pad rejects most of the generated heat; it has to go somewhere right? Well it is sent into the rotor. So if you are on the brakes for a long time, there is a good chance you can wrap the rotors as the tiny little Liberty rotor is only capable of dissipating so much heat energy.

So when considering new brakes - look beyond the marketing into the science and weigh, both the positives and negatives

Yea, it was a dealer tech. I had the KJ in for the rear brake moan for the second time after replacing pads and rotors, and I suggested ceramics out of desperation. Since then, some 9 months later, the moan is gone, wet or dry, hot or cold.

welby · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:11 pm

myjeepwalks wrote:

I'm not getting in an internet pissing match here. I'm just stating i had powerslot rotors and ebc pads and the car stopped on a dime. Much improvement over stock. But if the slotted rotors have less surface area, making less contact with the pads, meaning less overall friction, resulting in less braking like you say. How come the car stopped alot better? These parts are designed for better performance not less. If my liberty was a high performance street machine or if i used it for towing, i'd upgrade. For my application the stock brakes are fine. I will upgrade to ebc's when i need front brakes again and i'll use stock rotors.

I didn't mean to make it a pissing match here, sorry about that, I'm definately not the type

. I was just stating facts as well. The discussion I had with my friend who is a tech at Ford's proving ground went about the same as sleeve84028's discussion with his tech.

I use PFC carbon-metallic pads and stock style rotors. The braking is much better than stock (4 wheel disc) and I've had no problems with warping rotors like I did with the semi-metallics that were on there previously. They do make an aweful lot of dust though :roll:

. I'll probably try some EBC's next time around.

myjeepwalks · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:08 pm

welby wrote:

myjeepwalks wrote:

I'm not getting in an internet pissing match here. I'm just stating i had powerslot rotors and ebc pads and the car stopped on a dime. Much improvement over stock. But if the slotted rotors have less surface area, making less contact with the pads, meaning less overall friction, resulting in less braking like you say. How come the car stopped alot better? These parts are designed for better performance not less. If my liberty was a high performance street machine or if i used it for towing, i'd upgrade. For my application the stock brakes are fine. I will upgrade to ebc's when i need front brakes again and i'll use stock rotors.

I didn't mean to make it a pissing match here, sorry about that, I'm definately not the type

. I was just stating facts as well. The discussion I had with my friend who is a tech at Ford's proving ground went about the same as sleeve84028's discussion with his tech.

I use PFC carbon-metallic pads and stock style rotors. The braking is much better than stock (4 wheel disc) and I've had no problems with warping rotors like I did with the semi-metallics that were on there previously. They do make an aweful lot of dust though :roll:

. I'll probably try some EBC's next time around.

No problem :lol:

I was just giving my experience with the set up. The current pads I have on mine are from advanced auto parts can't remember what brand. They're noisey and i'm not that happy with them. As soon as they wear out i'm gonna try some ebc's. :lol:

jcphoto20 · **Joined:** Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:36 am **Posts:** 507

[quote="welby"][quote="myjeepwalks"]I've had EBC Green Stuff pads before on a bmw with power slot rotors. The car would stop on a dime. Several times i've done heavy braking @ 100mph with absolutely no brake fade.

As for quality slotted rotors they will dissapate more heat due the slots. Under very heavy braking the extreme heat can cause the pads to vaporize. The slots let the excess gas out. I'm not makeing this up, this is straight from powerslot.com. I think the rotors would be overkill on a liberty but the pads couldn't hurt. When i'm due for front pads i'm going with ebc green stuff. The rears stock because i have drum brakes out back.[/quote]

I don't doubt that they braked well, I also don't doubt that Powerslot.com claims that their product works very well. The fact is that metal transfers more heat than air does, and when you lessen the volume of metal on the rotor the less material there is to transfer heat. Also there is less surface area making contact with the pad meaning less overall friction and less braking. Most performance pads come with a groove in the center of them which does the same thing as a slotted rotor will do without losing rotor material or causing extra pad wear, which is what happens when the pad runs across the edge of a slot or hole in drilled/slotted rotors. I'm not making this up either.[/quote]

sorry to drag this thread out, but when the discussion of slotted brakes or non slotted brakes comes up, someone always says heat transfer is lost due to air not transferring heat as well as metal. true. but there is no transfer of heat. that would infer the rotors are sucking the heat out of the pads. while that may be happening, its a very small amount of heat.

you are thinking about it backwards. the heat transfer has nothing to do with the small swept area of the pad on the rotor. its the rest of the rotor you need to be concentrating on. think about that chunk of metal spinning in the air, the heat transfer in a brake is only from the rotor to the air, so the more surface area it has to cool in the air, the cooler it will be.

as far as whether similar application slotted or solid discs are cooler than the other cant really be said for sure, since you cant really make a direct comparison, some solid vented discs may have a more efficient (more, thinner blades?) internal venting and some drilled or slotted discs, may have inefficient ones.

the friction doesnt really heat the pads that much, if it did, they would just turn to liquid and not last very long and you would have lots of other individual brake cylinder issues, which you dont. its the rotor that is the main heatsink.

as far as wear and the holes/slots is concerned, slotted and drilled brakes are cooler, as i described and the brake dust and gasses keep the leading edges of the holes polished so what wear increase is usually offset by the cooler rotors.

remember the heat transfer is from the rotor to the air, not the sucking it out of the pad.

that was all regarding wear and heat. as far as power, unless there was a grip difference in the caliper pressure or pad friction, there would theoretically be less braking power certainly because of the reduced swept area due to air being where metal was. but there is also the added pressure agains the rotor gained from venting the braking gasses more efficiently so you probably gain most of that back.

in all of this a softer pad can have longer wear when used against a cooler rotor.

so the bottom line is there is no bottom line and you cant do any direct comparisons based on theory since it totally depends on individual rotor/pad design.

if someone has had strong long lasting results with a certain slotted/pad combo and someone else has done the same thing with solid/different pad combo. you cant even compare that, since im sure everyone brakes so totally different. i mean how can you explain why i have more than half life left on my brakes at 50K and others have had total failure or completely worn out in 15K.

if it works for you, that kicks explicative

please let me know what you think of my backwards thinking on this, i dont think im out there this time, just a different way of looking at it.

hell i could be totally wrong, sure, but i dont think so

sleeve84028 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:02 pm

No I don't think you're wrong at all.. I feel that your post and mine are one and the same.

keeping this civil /

There is going to be some heat in the brake pad. It might not be super hot - but there will be heat there as a result of the friction.

Maybe this starts a discussion on brake fade? Where the rotor has reached a limit on the amount of heat it can reject (yet the brakes are generating more than this limit) and without that cooling you loose the brakes. (Not very much fun at all!) Not to the point of the brake pad mealting into goo - but that heat has to be absorbed by something right?

jcphoto20 · **Joined:** Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:36 am **Posts:** 507

i dont have any experience in the area of brake fade to lend to the discussion. i just drive like someone twice my age

sleeve84028 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:22 am

Ah - it's not too pretty... (I was on a track though / not the street)

Better Brakes.

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