Transmission Flush

JohnnyCash · **Posted:** Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:33 pm

I was just at the dealership and asked about servicing the transmission.
They recommended to get it serviced every 25,000 miles, and did not recommend flushing it, even though they
do have a flushing machine for certain situations. This recommendation surprised me so I came home and found this article
on the internet...........thought it was interesting:

Do You Need To Flush?
© Vincent Ciulla

Apr 2, 2006

Engine and transmission flushes are being sold left and right, but are they a good idea?
A New "Recommended" Maintenance Item...
In the last few years you were probably asked, or told, by you dealer or quick lube place that you need an engine or transmission flush, because the engine oil or transmission fluid is very dirty. They will tell you that it is recommended that you have it done because your engine or transmission will last longer if it is flushed clean. In that they are correct, a clean engine and transmission will last longer. But is flushing the best way to get a dirty engine clean?

What Is An Engine Or Transmission Flush?
Flushing is the high pressure forcing of fluid back against the normal flow of the fluid. In other words if the normal flow is left to right, the flush would force the fluid right to left. This is accomplished by connecting a machine that will force special solvents back through the engine and transmission. The idea is that by forcing cleaning solvents backwards through the system, it will get all the junk and garbage that has formed over time and "flush" it out of the system. In theory this may be sound, but in actual practice, it's dangerous.

The Dangers Of Flushing...
Flush machines do what they say; they force high pressure cleaning solvents back through the engine and transmission and clean out some of the accumulated junk that has formed. Now engines have small passages and galleries through which oil or automatic transmission fluid flow and there are one-way valves that keep the fluids from backtracking for whatever reason. By using an aggressive cleaning procedure like flushing, large chunks of accumulated sludge are broken off and forced backwards through these galleries and valves and, more often than not, lodge tightly and block them. This cuts off the normal flow of the fluid and causes lack of lubrication in an engine and abnormal or no shifting in a transmission. The results are expensive repairs, or more often, engine or transmission replacement.

Who Recommends Flushing As Maintenance?
The shops that want to sell you the engine or transmission flush charge anywhere from $49.95 to $99.95, not including a new engine or transmission. Those are extra. And they state quite emphatically that it is recommended that it be done. But who actually recommends that it be done? I checked with GM, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, Honda and several other new car manufacturers and not one recommended an engine or transmission flush as routine maintenance. In fact, they specifically don't recommend it at all!! The new car dealerships that do sell them use the implication that since they are the dealer that it must be the factory that recommends it. And if they do say the factory recommends it, they are flat out lying to you.

The only ones who do recommend flushing as a maintenance procedure are the companies that sell the flush machines and the shops that buy them. The flush machine manufacturers state quite clearly in their operating manuals not to use their machines on "high-mileage vehicles". That simple statement proves that flushing is not a safe procedure. It also absolves them of any responsibility of any damage that may occur due to the use of their equipment. This leaves the shop wholly responsible for anything that happens and the cost of correcting the damage that occurs.

I know this since I recently appeared as a witness in a lawsuit where a person was sold an engine flush that destroyed his engine.

The Facts...
The fact is, if you do frequent engine oil and filter changes and service the transmission every 15,000 miles there is no need for a flush. I have customers that change their oil every 3,000 miles and they don't need to use fancy oils and filters, and after over 100,000 miles, the oil comes out almost as clean as it goes in. They have regular transmission services and their transmission still shifts like new, even with well over 100,000 miles on it.

If you have neglected regular oil changes and you want to do some interior engine cleaning, get the oil and filter changed and replace one quart of motor oil for one quart of transmission fluid. The transmission fluid has a high detergent content that will clean the engine without damaging it. Do this every 3,000 miles and you will clean the inside of the engine slowly and gently.

If you do get a flush, I recommend you do it when you can afford to replace the engine or transmission.

Pablo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm **Posts:** 1201

Friend of mine had a auto 96 Corolla. Drove it for 10 years and 210,000 miles. Decided to flush the transmission on the advice of some retard service guy. 2500 miles later the transmission died (on Christmas day).

Not a good idea.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:23 pm

JohnnyCash wrote:

I was just at the dealership and asked about servicing the transmission.
They recommended to get it serviced every 25,000 miles, and did not recommend flushing it, even though they
do have a flushing machine for certain situations. This recommendation surprised me so I came home and found this article
on the internet...........thought it was interesting:

Do You Need To Flush?
© Vincent Ciulla

Apr 2, 2006

Engine and transmission flushes are being sold left and right, but are they a good idea?
A New "Recommended" Maintenance Item...
In the last few years you were probably asked, or told, by you dealer or quick lube place that you need an engine or transmission flush, because the engine oil or transmission fluid is very dirty. They will tell you that it is recommended that you have it done because your engine or transmission will last longer if it is flushed clean. In that they are correct, a clean engine and transmission will last longer. But is flushing the best way to get a dirty engine clean?

What Is An Engine Or Transmission Flush?
Flushing is the high pressure forcing of fluid back against the normal flow of the fluid. In other words if the normal flow is left to right, the flush would force the fluid right to left. This is accomplished by connecting a machine that will force special solvents back through the engine and transmission. The idea is that by forcing cleaning solvents backwards through the system, it will get all the junk and garbage that has formed over time and "flush" it out of the system. In theory this may be sound, but in actual practice, it's dangerous.

The Dangers Of Flushing...
Flush machines do what they say; they force high pressure cleaning solvents back through the engine and transmission and clean out some of the accumulated junk that has formed. Now engines have small passages and galleries through which oil or automatic transmission fluid flow and there are one-way valves that keep the fluids from backtracking for whatever reason. By using an aggressive cleaning procedure like flushing, large chunks of accumulated sludge are broken off and forced backwards through these galleries and valves and, more often than not, lodge tightly and block them. This cuts off the normal flow of the fluid and causes lack of lubrication in an engine and abnormal or no shifting in a transmission. The results are expensive repairs, or more often, engine or transmission replacement.

Who Recommends Flushing As Maintenance?
The shops that want to sell you the engine or transmission flush charge anywhere from $49.95 to $99.95, not including a new engine or transmission. Those are extra. And they state quite emphatically that it is recommended that it be done. But who actually recommends that it be done? I checked with GM, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, Honda and several other new car manufacturers and not one recommended an engine or transmission flush as routine maintenance. In fact, they specifically don't recommend it at all!! The new car dealerships that do sell them use the implication that since they are the dealer that it must be the factory that recommends it. And if they do say the factory recommends it, they are flat out lying to you.

The only ones who do recommend flushing as a maintenance procedure are the companies that sell the flush machines and the shops that buy them. The flush machine manufacturers state quite clearly in their operating manuals not to use their machines on "high-mileage vehicles". That simple statement proves that flushing is not a safe procedure. It also absolves them of any responsibility of any damage that may occur due to the use of their equipment. This leaves the shop wholly responsible for anything that happens and the cost of correcting the damage that occurs.

I know this since I recently appeared as a witness in a lawsuit where a person was sold an engine flush that destroyed his engine.

The Facts...
The fact is, if you do frequent engine oil and filter changes and service the transmission every 15,000 miles there is no need for a flush. I have customers that change their oil every 3,000 miles and they don't need to use fancy oils and filters, and after over 100,000 miles, the oil comes out almost as clean as it goes in. They have regular transmission services and their transmission still shifts like new, even with well over 100,000 miles on it.

If you have neglected regular oil changes and you want to do some interior engine cleaning, get the oil and filter changed and replace one quart of motor oil for one quart of transmission fluid. The transmission fluid has a high detergent content that will clean the engine without damaging it. Do this every 3,000 miles and you will clean the inside of the engine slowly and gently.

If you do get a flush, I recommend you do it when you can afford to replace the engine or transmission.

I don't know where you got that from but that articale is 100% false.A tranny flush machine hooks in line with one of your tranny cooler lines and sends fluid back into the transmission at the same flow rate and volume that comes out and it sends fluid into the tranny the correct direction of flow.There is no harm in getting a tranny flushed,none,zip,zero.If the flush machine tried to send the fluid in the wrong direction(which it won't since they all are self adjusting to the flow anyway) it would blow the tranny to pieces while flushing.

Quote:

Pablo

Friend of mine had a auto 96 Corolla. Drove it for 10 years and 210,000 miles. Decided to flush the transmission on the advice of some retard service guy. 2500 miles later the transmission died (on Christmas day).

Not a good idea.

Your friends tranny was on it's way out before the flush,it was not the flushes fault.

I don't know where you all are getting that tranny flushes are bad,they are not,they are better for the tranny then just changing 25% of the
fluid.It is better to get a flush and then change the filters to.I've built a few(hundred) trannies from Turbo 350's,700R4's,4LE80's,and many different Alisson trannies and I can see no way a flush can be harmful.Sorry but if you wait till 200,000 miles to flush the tranny then then it dies a few thousand miles later it was going to die a few thousand miles latter without the flush being done to.

JohnnyCash · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:12 am

Quote:

I don't know where you all are getting that tranny flushes are bad,they are not,they are better for the tranny then just changing 25% of the
fluid.

I got that info from this dude. The site said he's an expert, so he can't possibly be wrong:

Vincent Ciulla - Profile
Vincent Ciulla has been a professional automotive technician for over 35 years and is a certified master technician with experience in both domestic and foreign cars and light trucks.

Experience: He has been a shop foreman in a BMW-Nissan-Volkswagen dealership overseeing the training of the techs in that shop and providing help with any special problems or diagnostics that develop. He has also been a lead technician of a large Nissan-Porshe-Ferrari-Lotus dealership overseeing a team of technicians and performing quality control on all serviced vehicles. He also has many years of experience working on passenger car diesel engines.

Education: He has been factory-trained by Ford, General Motors and Chrysler, as well as BMW, Nissan and Mercedes Benz. He has also attended hundreds of seminars and clinics for everything from anti-freeze to Z-bars as well as new model classes for every major make of automobile.

JPaul · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:18 am

I woudl go with tjkj on this for the tranny flushes, plus, last time I checked, with a tranny flush they just flow fresh tranny fluid thru until it comes out clean to replace any of the old stuff. I have never seen them do it with chemicals.

An engine flush on the other hand, might be true to the article, but I don't know. The only engine "flush" I have ever heard of is the cans of cleaner you dump in that run through the engine while it's running for a few minutes, then you drain everything and put new oil in. I've never heard of anyone hooking up a machine to an engine and trying to pump chemicals through it backwards.

In all honesty, I am very slow to believe anything I read on the internet. I am more likely to try and find a book about it or ask someone I know is an expert, and even then I will check with several other sources before I will fully believe anything. I would advise against taking one singel article on the itnernet as gospel. The guy in the article claims to have testified in a lawsuit regarding an engine getting toeasted after a flush, but provideds absolutely no information about said lawsuit. Who v. Who? In what state? What was his testimony? Was it in defense of or against flushing? What was the outcome of the lawsuit? Was the article written for a respected publication that checks it's contributing author's material for credibility? What background does this guy have that would make him an expert on the subject?

I could go on and on with questions about the article, it's something I've learned through colloge for writing. Always question you own points and be ready to defend them. If you cannot create a good defense for you point of view, scrap it and try another point. Critical thinking is the general name for that type of thinking. I'm much more likely to listen to a guy about how to weld metal if he works as a welder for a heavy equipment comany, than I will be to listen to some guy who has never even soldered two wires together in his life and has merely formed an opinion on how welding should be done based on what he has read in the daily paper.

myjeepwalks · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:21 am

Quote:

There is no harm in getting a tranny flushed,none,zip,zero.If the flush machine tried to send the fluid in the wrong direction(which it won't since they all are self adjusting to the flow anyway) it would blow the tranny to pieces while flushing.

It all depends who's doing it. I've seen cases where jiffy lube has blown out front pump seals by either a faulty machine or mostly like a retarded tech doing the service. These machines are pretty much idiot proof, so go figure. As long as you have someone who knows what they are doing you shouldn't have a problem as long as it's done at regular service intervals. Dont wait till 200k to do a trans flush or service, if you do you're just opening up a can of worms and asking for problems. Better off just leaving it. I drop the pan and change the filters (45rfe) and fluid every 20-30k weather it's dirty or not since i no longer have access to a flush mahcine.

I really dont trust anyone to work on my rig either but i think thats just part of my kj obsesive compulsive disorder. :lol:

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:41 am

JohnnyCash wrote:

Quote:

I don't know where you all are getting that tranny flushes are bad,they are not,they are better for the tranny then just changing 25% of the
fluid.

I got that info from this dude. The site said he's an expert, so he can't possibly be wrong:

Vincent Ciulla - Profile
Vincent Ciulla has been a professional automotive technician for over 35 years and is a certified master technician with experience in both domestic and foreign cars and light trucks.

Experience: He has been a shop foreman in a BMW-Nissan-Volkswagen dealership overseeing the training of the techs in that shop and providing help with any special problems or diagnostics that develop. He has also been a lead technician of a large Nissan-Porshe-Ferrari-Lotus dealership overseeing a team of technicians and performing quality control on all serviced vehicles. He also has many years of experience working on passenger car diesel engines.

Education: He has been factory-trained by Ford, General Motors and Chrysler, as well as BMW, Nissan and Mercedes Benz. He has also attended hundreds of seminars and clinics for everything from anti-freeze to Z-bars as well as new model classes for every major make of automobile.

Well I'm ASE auto master certified also,Chrysler certified(32 certifications including auto trannies),49 GM certifications,and 3 Alisson certifications,1 Cummins certifications.Oh and 12 years experiance.

That all doesn't mean alot,it's just a piece of paper.

A good tranny flush machine costs about $5000+ and are state of the art,have used 3 different models myself and thay all are good,heck most even have flow meters so you can tell without dropping the pan if the filter is slightly plugged or not.

JohnnyCash · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:48 am

Quote:

Well I'm ASE auto master certified also,Chrysler certified(32 certifications including auto trannies),49 GM certifications,and 3 Alisson certifications,1 Cummins certifications.Oh and 12 years experiance.

That all doesn't mean alot,it's just a piece of paper.

A good tranny flush machine costs about $5000+ and are state of the art,have used 3 different models myself and thay all are good,heck most even have flow meters so you can tell without dropping the pan if the filter is slightly plugged or not.

Well I think you are the new expert then. Do you think you could take the other guy in a cage match? He looked kind of big, but getting old.

I remember the service person at my dealership mentioned their flush machine really powered the fluid through the transmission at a high rate. Maybe they have an old machine, and that's why they didn't recommend it. I always thought it made more sense, so it kind of confused me when they didn't recommend something that costs more. That's very strange for a dealer.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:55 am

Quote:

Do you think you could take the other guy in a cage match? He looked kind of big, but getting old.

Just remember that 8 of my years was in the military(at direct support or general support levels) and had a M-16 strapped on my back for 2 of those years,I was tought to fight dirty and cheat,oh and I'm a dead on shot at 500 meters :wink:

,

!

C co Crusader 2/127 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:48 am

but you not a scout sniper...... i got ya beat on something finally! yes i rule! now you probably make an booty of me and come out with the 18 series something to wich i would just cry because that would offically make you god.

Rush345 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:00 am

myjeepwalks wrote:

Quote:

There is no harm in getting a tranny flushed,none,zip,zero.If the flush machine tried to send the fluid in the wrong direction(which it won't since they all are self adjusting to the flow anyway) it would blow the tranny to pieces while flushing.

It all depends who's doing it. I've seen cases where jiffy lube has blown out front pump seals by either a faulty machine or mostly like a retarded tech doing the service. These machines are pretty much idiot proof, so go figure. As long as you have someone who knows what they are doing you shouldn't have a problem as long as it's done at regular service intervals. Dont wait till 200k to do a trans flush or service, if you do you're just opening up a can of worms and asking for problems. Better off just leaving it. I drop the pan and change the filters (45rfe) and fluid every 20-30k weather it's dirty or not since i no longer have access to a flush mahcine.

I really dont trust anyone to work on my rig either but i think thats just part of my kj obsesive compulsive disorder. :lol:

Funny you should mention Jiffy Lube in the month and a half while trying to find cheaper tow hooks. I've been in Checkers, Napa, and Auto Zone among other parts places. But on 3 seperate occasions I heard some customer looking to fix for his drain plug because JL had stipped the one on his ride out. I now wonder if Jiffy Lube wasn't one of the partys in the LAW SUITE :shock:

Tokyojoe · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:08 pm

Never trust websites unless you know they come from a reputable business or organization.

Do a google on fitness/exercise. You will find millions of "experts" yet if you verify their claims of education and training, they are nothing but a bunch of nobodys. Same goes for if you seek a Personal Trainer. There are so many so-called "legitimate orgnaizations" that offer Personal Training certifications but when you go with those places, it is a take home test and they charge you a bunch of money for the mini packet of info.

I can promise that there are just as many so-called "automotive mechanic" experts out there.

Do not trust auto repair shops since they can be biased. Look for Consumer Reports and see what info they have on that subject

detroit_doc · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:30 pm

I don't know anything about the flush machines. But I had my mother's grand cherokee tranmission flushed with a machine at the dealership with 36,000 on the clock. Prior to the flush it was working perfectly. Immediately after getting it back it was not shifting correctly. It would hold 2nd way too long, etc. We took it back to the dealer who told us the flush had pushed a bunch of used clutch material into the valve body.

_UnLiMiTeD_ · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:15 pm

MANY people do not get tranny flushes, the vast majority actually and will have no tranny problems for the life of the vehicle that would be in a result of not flushing it. I do plan to do a full tranny drain next time around but i dont think a machine to do it for an extra $80 is necessary as long as your ontop of your maintance.

My neighbors cavalier which they owned all their life is at 265k with no tranny flushes, just regular maintance. my dads dodge ram with 180k on it has had no tranny flush and is still going strong, just regular maintance also. And if dealerships are not recommending it, there is a reason for it since they are turning down business.

jg45 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:50 pm

I had the tranny flushed in my wifes Tribute. The machine did not force any fluid. The tech hooked the machine up in line with the cooler. As the dirty fluid went in it appeared to push one side of a piston up. On the other side of the piston was clean fluid. As the piston was pushed up by the old fluid it pushed the new fluid out of the machine back into the line. This was done at 40k and over 20k ago and the trans seems fine. I could actually tell it seemed to shift a little smoother after the flush, but that could have been my mind trying to justify the cost.

sleeve84028 · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:53 am

My Liberty has had 2 Transmission flushes so far... Nothing blew up and I actually had to use the gas pedal to keep the fluid moving in the machine. Appearently the Chrysler transmission has really low pressure at idle and can't move the fluid piston on it's own [in the flush machine]

Video Guy · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:24 am

jg45 wrote:

I could actually tell it seemed to shift a little smoother after the flush, but that could have been my mind trying to justify the cost.

I just had my local Midas store do a Wynn's auto trans flush on Saturday. My KJ now shifts noticeably smoother. This is the second tranny flush I've had done at 30K-mile intervals, which I think is what Schedule A of my service manual recommends. The first time it didn't go as well, and I vow to never return to that shop (Tires Plus, if you want to know). They didn't use the right ATF+4 (don't know what they put in), but dealership said that if I'd driven it for much longer, I would have blown out all my seals and killed the transmission. :shock:

I mentioned that incident to Midas, and the manager ensured me that they had what I needed. The price was right. I had a buttload of preventative maintenance done for only four bills, which at this busy time in my life was worth every penny. (Tune-up, battery cable, radiator, fuel system, oil change, and tranny.) I've taken the KJ and my wife's old Corolla and Mazda6 there four three years. Pedro and his crew have earned my trust, and I'm hesitant to every take a vehicle elsewhere.

Guest · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:43 pm

sleeve84028 wrote:

My Liberty has had 2 Transmission flushes so far... Nothing blew up and I actually had to use the gas pedal to keep the fluid moving in the machine. Appearently the Chrysler transmission has really low pressure at idle and can't move the fluid piston on it's own [in the flush machine]

I know on the 45RFE it's supposed to be done in gear, 42RLE (i think) is supposed to be done in neutral

Squintz Palladoris · **Posted:** Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:10 pm

C co Crusader 2/127 wrote:

now you probably make an @$#% of me and come out with the 18 series something to wich i would just cry because that would offically make you god.

"God" LMAO! :roll:

Squintz Palladoris · **Posted:** Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:15 pm

JohnnyCash wrote:

The Dangers Of Flushing...
Flush machines do what they say; they force high pressure cleaning solvents back through the engine and transmission and clean out some of the accumulated junk that has formed. Now engines have small passages and galleries through which oil or automatic transmission fluid flow and there are one-way valves that keep the fluids from backtracking for whatever reason. By using an aggressive cleaning procedure like flushing, large chunks of accumulated sludge are broken off and forced backwards through these galleries and valves and, more often than not, lodge tightly and block them. This cuts off the normal flow of the fluid and causes lack of lubrication in an engine and abnormal or no shifting in a transmission. The results are expensive repairs, or more often, engine or transmission replacement.

Looks like this "Expert" is contradicting himself to me.

Brad

Transmission Flush

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