The KJ continues to get no love...

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:03 am

"Don't get us wrong, the (Suzuki) Grand Vitara is a valuable contender in the Soft-Roaders class, which includes the Honda CR-V, Toyota Rav4, and Jeep Liberty, but most of these vehicles are more destined to a life of being towed behind motorhomes or driven by soccer moms than one in the dirt." -Petersen's 4Wheel and Off-Road Magazine December '05

I'm very disappointed that these journalists who supposedly love off-roading don't do their homework. They obviously have never spent enough time with a KJ to understand or appreciate it, and they have no clue how different the KJ is from these mall cruisers they group it with. :roll:

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:41 am

no one ever will.

krazz1e · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:04 pm

f'em.

It’s their opinion which is obviously not based on facts. In time they will see the facts......it's slowly progressing.

ShoreRenegade · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:32 pm

How in the world anyone can lump a Liberty in with Rav-4's and CR-V's in beyond belief. Obviously they haven't driven the three or they would never make the comparisson. Hell, you can't even get the Rav or CR-V with a six cylinder engine AND you can't get them with real 4 wheel drive (AWD is NOT 4 wheel drive dammit).

Joe Jeep Owner · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:33 pm

Essentially, until you beef up the Liberty (or any other for that matter) arent they are all the same (in each class) off the lot more or less? I think that's what they base it on, if you think about it anything can be considered a "serious off roader" with the right mods. You are only limited by the parts that are available for each particular model.

pixeldzn · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:37 pm

Joe Jeep Owner wrote:

Essentially, until you beef up the Liberty (or any other for that matter) arent they are all the same (in each class) off the lot more or less? I think that's what they base it on, if you think about it anything can be considered a "serious off roader" with the right mods. You are only limited by the parts that are available for each particular model.

I don't think it's even possible to turn a CRV or Escape or Rav4 into an offroad vehicle. There is stuff out there for the Grand Vitara/Sidekick/Tracker however. The Jeep Liberty is mild trail capable off the lot. I wouldn't take one of those others on anything more than a badly kept road.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:39 pm

No, they aren't the same. Right off the lot the Liberty has a solid rear axle, heavy duty tranny, V6 or diesel power, heavy duty 2-speed t-case, coil sprung suspension at all corners, etc. And it weighs over 2-tons. The Jeep is a completely different animal. The Rav4, CR-V, Escape, etc. are all cheaply built commuter vehicles with all-wheel drive that's only useful in the snow.

Joe Jeep Owner · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:57 pm

Well, ok maybe not that one or an "AWD" but how about all if not most 4X4's? I mean my Lib is a stock 4X4 and I could take it off road right from the lot but could do anything too advanced with out some major upgrades.

Eddo · **Joined:** Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:01 pm **Posts:** 1214

Joe Jeep Owner wrote:

Well, ok maybe not that one or an "AWD" but how about all if not most 4X4's? I mean my Lib is a stock 4X4 and I could take it off road right from the lot but could do anything too advanced with out some major upgrades.

Big difference is what LibertyCRD describes. Low-range 4x4 and a true 4wd system that locks the center diff. The CRV or RAV4 would just be like wheeling you KJ in 4-fulltime all the time.

Plus the KJ is much beefier, just look at the lower control arms for example, heavy solid cast iron vs stamped steel. Plus the others typical run a mchpearson strut style supension, where as the KJ has a coil over, double wishbone setup as seen in truck.

Only real similarity (if you can call it that) is that the KJ does kind of look like a cute-ute strait from the lot. At least quite a few do. However, just thow some tires and a lift on her and you have a different vehicle.

Joe Jeep Owner · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:20 pm

Plus that's basically how most are marketed for the most part.

I wasnt arguing the fact, I guess I was just trying to think how they do and to be honest some of the differences I didnt even know.

It's funny, the Lib has great offroad abilities as stock and great potential for upgrades but MOST of the people that buy it never take it offroad (much like myself) or are "grocery moms". The majority of the people (excluding construction people) that buy heavy duty 4X4 trucks with all the bells and whistles use them primarily for moving furniture and dont take them off road at all.

jeeplikens · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:51 pm

You guys are reading too much into it. Just look at the sorce. I seen this guy on a "On Demand" 4Wheel show and he was driving one of those truck/car/notsure chevy avalanch and broke the heck of out it. From my understanding, this guy never has much good to say about the liberty. The KJ is what it is. It's a cut above the cut utes in it's offroad abilities but it will never get the resepect it deserves in abilities and reliablity as long as CR and Peterson have thier say. There was an article about people who live out on the outer banks and needing a vehicle that can serve both everyday use and driving in deep water. The KJ was recommended. Not the Rav4, CRV or Subaru. The only next best thing to own was old beater 4x4 truck.

jeeplikens · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:01 pm

Joe Jeep Owner wrote:

Essentially, until you beef up the Liberty (or any other for that matter) arent they are all the same (in each class) off the lot more or less? I think that's what they base it on, if you think about it anything can be considered a "serious off roader" with the right mods. You are only limited by the parts that are available for each particular model.

I agree that off the showroom floor, the KJ is more able to handle more off road abuse then the other 2 cute utes. Ever seen the rear wishbone of a V after it hooks a curb? I seen one after it tackled a chuck of concret in parking lot. Bent all to crap. It's not built, designed or sold to be "abused". It's built for short runs to the store, mall or baseball diamond on sunny or overcast days. If you have to drive a rav or v off pavement, have backup. :roll:

roadpup · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:11 pm

In my opinion, even the KJ is geared towards the pavement pounding grocery getting majority. Had we offroaders been the target market, the KJ would have come out with a solid front axle, lower weight, better approach/departure angles, etc. etc. Even the new Grands aren't aimed at us. The Wrangler does a better job of it, but even it has become softer with each passing year. Jeep is selling it's name more than anything else. And without the soccer mom's and their kind, Jeep would have folded years ago.

Don't get me wrong, I love Jeeps. I look at the KJ and WK as vehicles that just add a challenge to make them unstopable and offroad capable. Nothing wrong with that... makes things more interesting and tends to make each offroader's vehicle a bit unique from the next. And one can't overlook that all these "babied" Jeeps provide a source of decent second-hand rigs just waiting to be loved and used.

Joe Jeep Owner · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:54 pm

Quote:

In my opinion, even the KJ is geared towards the pavement pounding grocery getting majority. Had we offroaders been the target market, the KJ would have come out with a solid front axle, lower weight, better approach/departure angles, etc. etc. Even the new Grands aren't aimed at us. The Wrangler does a better job of it, but even it has become softer with each passing year. Jeep is selling it's name more than anything else. And without the soccer mom's and their kind, Jeep would have folded years ago.

Quote:

Amen roadpup!

That's all I was trying to say, if it was marketed as a fully functional, aggressive offroad SUV then all the upgrades we all spend our hard earned money on wouldnt be necessary and you wouldnt see the "grocery getters" of the world driving them as much as they do.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:04 pm

The Jeep Wrangler Rubicon comes with solid axles, lockers, mud tires, etc. But what's the first thing people do to them? MOD THEM!

It doesn't matter what it is...people will always mod them to make them even better. The point here is the KJ is much more suited for off-road from the factory than the other small SUVs being sold, and because of that Petersen's magazine should not group them together in the same category.

Steakgoddess · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:16 pm

LibertyCRD wrote:

The Jeep Wrangler Rubicon comes with solid axles, lockers, mud tires, etc. But what's the first thing people do to them? MOD THEM!

It doesn't matter what it is...people will always mod them to make them even better. The point here is the KJ is much more suited for off-road from the factory than the other small SUVs being sold, and because of that Petersen's magazine should not group them together in the same category.

Then write to them, e-mail them. Come on KJ owners, I know you guys got big mouths. :shock:

Eddo · **Joined:** Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:01 pm **Posts:** 1214

roadpup wrote:

In my opinion, even the KJ is geared towards the pavement pounding grocery getting majority. Had we offroaders been the target market, the KJ would have come out with a solid front axle, lower weight, better approach/departure angles, etc. etc. Even the new Grands aren't aimed at us. The Wrangler does a better job of it, but even it has become softer with each passing year. Jeep is selling it's name more than anything else. And without the soccer mom's and their kind, Jeep would have folded years ago.

Don't get me wrong, I love Jeeps. I look at the KJ and WK as vehicles that just add a challenge to make them unstopable and offroad capable. Nothing wrong with that... makes things more interesting and tends to make each offroader's vehicle a bit unique from the next. And one can't overlook that all these "babied" Jeeps provide a source of decent second-hand rigs just waiting to be loved and used.

I have to agree. But think about the market that exists. People that 4-wheel are the minority. Most people want a road friendly SUV, they could care less about 4-wheeling. Just go over to something like the boards over on edmunds.com and see how people complain about the KJ. These are the majority of the KJ owners. Countless posts about rides too rough, brakes make noise, jerky shifts, noisy engine, bad gas mileage, window switch, step in height too high, 4wd system crude and hard to use, etc.

You can't compete in the SUV market if you make vehicle that appeals to 1% of SUV owners. We would all buy it, but no one else would. Overall, I think Jeep has done a decent compromise. The KJ seems to please the "soccer moms" well enough for the price and is still pretty darn capable. If you want even more capability go grab a rubicon, but then you give up a little road manners and creature comforts.

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:37 pm

A rav 4 could not do this, and yes my back tire is off the ground b/c those leaves are about 1ft deep. Its so crazy going up and down that hill.

jeeplikens · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:46 pm

roadpup wrote:

In my opinion, even the KJ is geared towards the pavement pounding grocery getting majority. Had we offroaders been the target market, the KJ would have come out with a solid front axle, lower weight, better approach/departure angles, etc. etc. Even the new Grands aren't aimed at us. The Wrangler does a better job of it, but even it has become softer with each passing year. Jeep is selling it's name more than anything else. And without the soccer mom's and their kind, Jeep would have folded years ago.

Don't get me wrong, I love Jeeps. I look at the KJ and WK as vehicles that just add a challenge to make them unstopable and offroad capable. Nothing wrong with that... makes things more interesting and tends to make each offroader's vehicle a bit unique from the next. And one can't overlook that all these "babied" Jeeps provide a source of decent second-hand rigs just waiting to be loved and used.

Funny thing you mentioned the "solid axle". Was watching some 4wheel stuff on On-Demand this weekend. There was a RED KJ in the run. Halfway through the 1st trail it "dislocated" the "rear suspension". Front end survived just fine. I'm not a avid offroader but seems to me they both have it's advantages. IT was moded out too (had the biggest tires I've ever seen on a KJ) Sad that evertime they were shooting the KJ, it was getting hung up, getting wenched or breaking down. But, then again, it was a event sponsored by Peterson who seems to hate KJ's. So I'm sure he "edited" out the good stuff and left in the negative. Oh, didn't see any V's or Rav's on that trail. It might be in the "grocery getting majority" but it's nice to know you can take a shortcut every now and then. :wink:

skrracing · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:54 pm

Our day is coming very soon guys. Just hang in there just a bit longer and the LOST Group with be getting the word out for dang sure. later...Clint

The KJ continues to get no love...

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