SNOW AND no ABS

BLANCK88 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:47 pm

hey guys,
this is my first winter without a car that has ABS, what should I expect if it ever snows here in Pennsylvania?

USAFCOP · **Posted:** Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:55 pm

Well, just like a car with ABS, the key is to do everything slow. If you have the stock GSA crap tire, the slightest stomp on the brake will cause a lock up. Good AT Tires are great help in the snow. I had BFG ATs in MO, and they still would lock up and slide a little, but were 20 times better than the GSAs.

Just remember, if you feel the front lock up, let off the brake to unlock the tire. If the wheel does not spin, you will not be able to steer. just use slow gradual brake pushes, and tap the brakes don't ride them or stop on them. Overall, if you get better tires, the Lib w/o ABS is not that bad. Just let the wheels roll to a stop not slide

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:56 pm

Your wheels can lock up.

But anyway, some people say you need to pump the brakes, but if you know how to drive a car without abs, then you'll be ok. The only thing abs will help is when turning. The best thing to do is get in a snow covered parking lot that you know has no covered obstructions, and play around with the brakes.

Bri · **Posted:** Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:11 pm

Remember, if you can't see pavement because of snow/ice and have no ABS (like me), PART-TIME 4WD is your best friend. Makes stopping under control much easier and faster.

Its also fun to use those parking lots covered with snow/ice to demonstrate exactly how wrong people are when they say "four wheel drive doesn't help you STOP!".

BLANCK88 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:16 pm

how does 4wd help you brake?

USAFCOP · **Posted:** Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:26 pm

only thing 4wd does is lower your gear ratio, thus helping the engine compression. It will get you in more trouble if you do not drive and brake slow.

I never use 4wd in snow unless I get stuck. then I usually lock the rear instead and that usually gets me out.

I do not know how the 42RLE does, but my 45RFE is geared good for me and compression is good for me no need for 4wd to slow me down. Now if you have a manual tranny, then you should try to downshift to slow you down to help keep the brakes from locking up.

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:26 pm

The torque with the 42rle is not as tight as the 45re's torque. Doesnt have near as good engine braking.

Bri · **Posted:** Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:32 pm

BLANCK88 wrote:

how does 4wd help you brake?

Your brakes are biased so the front wheels receive far more braking action than the back, which is fine for high traction situations. As you brake, the weight shifts forward, if the brakes weren't front biased the back wheels would lock easily in high traction situations.

Snow and ice aren't a high traction situation. You can't brake hard on snow in 2WD or in full-time 4WD because the front wheels lock easily and will lock before the back wheels are getting much braking force due to the bias.

In 4WD part-time, the front brakes are stopping your rear wheels as well as the front ones through the drive shafts, giving you four-wheel brakes instead of the mainly front wheel braking you get otherwise.

Like I said, take your rig out to a snow-covered parking lot and try it. You can stop much more quickly and still be in control using 4-part-time than in any other drive mode. It's not as good as being able to stand on the brake pedal with ABS and let it determine how hard to brake each wheel, but it's a lot better than no ABS and not being in 4 part-time.

bennybmn · **Posted:** Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:18 pm

No sudden movements! Jerk the wheel too much, and you'll understeer. Stab the brakes too hard and you'll skid, hit the gass to hard and you'll spin the tires. Think nice easy fluid movements of everything, and you should be ok.

Bri wrote:

Its also fun to use those parking lots covered with snow/ice to demonstrate exactly how wrong people are when they say "four wheel drive doesn't help you STOP!".

It CAN help you stop, but you still need to be carefull. It helps you go WAY more than stop, which is what gets most people into trouble. Growing up in Vermont, 99.9% of the cars I saw off the road were flatlanders from NY/NJ/CT/PA or whever up there skiing. 99.9% of those were SUVs of some sort.

ManicMechanicJoe · **Posted:** Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:01 am

ABS is cool for those that don't know how to drive and/or like to be lazy. If you want to turn while braking pump the brakes-you won't ever be as fast as the ABS (17 pumps per second for most cars) but you have a decent chance to turn. ABS will NOT decrease stopping distance. A car with ABS stops in the same (sometimes longer-gravel, snow, mud) distance as a manual brake system.

Taz · **Posted:** Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:12 am

Bri wrote:

BLANCK88 wrote:

how does 4wd help you brake?

Your brakes are biased so the front wheels receive far more braking action than the back, which is fine for high traction situations. As you brake, the weight shifts forward, if the brakes weren't front biased the back wheels would lock easily in high traction situations.

Snow and ice aren't a high traction situation. You can't brake hard on snow in 2WD or in full-time 4WD because the front wheels lock easily and will lock before the back wheels are getting much braking force due to the bias.

In 4WD part-time, the front brakes are stopping your rear wheels as well as the front ones through the drive shafts, giving you four-wheel brakes instead of the mainly front wheel braking you get otherwise.

Like I said, take your rig out to a snow-covered parking lot and try it. You can stop much more quickly and still be in control using 4-part-time than in any other drive mode. It's not as good as being able to stand on the brake pedal with ABS and let it determine how hard to brake each wheel, but it's a lot better than no ABS and not being in 4 part-time.

I have not tried this on the Jeep yet but on my old Silverado having it in 4wd did effect the control that I had when stopping. It would stop straighter. It also helped with cornering under braking, I think because all of the wheels that are connected through the drive shaft/axles have to be spinning at the same speed, so it seemed like the wheels didn't lock up as easily and they woulod keep turning, which is what you need for control.

krazz1e · **Posted:** Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:24 pm

Take her out and go to a parking lot... let her rip and get the feel for it.

The key to snow driving, when there is a good amount on the road is not to lock of the wheels. ABS assist in this, somewhat, but I would argue it inhibits your ability to stop in some situations.

Anyway, use the engine torque to slow you down and brake very lightly, don't press firmly.

Practice makes perfect. Tires do make a big difference also.

ManicMechanicJoe · **Posted:** Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:04 pm

krazz1e wrote:

Take her out and go to a parking lot... let her rip and get the feel for it.

The key to snow driving, when there is a good amount on the road is not to lock of the wheels. ABS assist in this, somewhat, but I would argue it inhibits your ability to stop in some situations.

Anyway, use the engine torque to slow you down and brake very lightly, don't press firmly.

Practice makes perfect. Tires do make a big difference also.

I agree with krazz1e, no vehicle is worth a d@mn without an experienced driver. Use the parking lot (avoid police as they may write you a ticket for reckless or careless driving) and experiment with 2 wheel, part time, full time, and 4Lo to get a feel. This experience may save you and your loved ones in the future. My dad made me do this when I got my learner's permit 4 years ago and it has made a huge difference (no weather related accidents here). If lake ice is thick enough to drive on-try it out. If you can stop on lake ice-you can stop anywhere.

BLANCK88 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:33 pm

not too much lake ice here in PA

Bri · **Posted:** Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:52 pm

ManicMechanicJoe wrote:

I agree with krazz1e, no vehicle is worth a d@mn without an experienced driver. Use the parking lot (avoid police as they may write you a ticket for reckless or careless driving) and experiment with 2 wheel, part time, full time, and 4Lo to get a feel. This experience may save you and your loved ones in the future. My dad made me do this when I got my learner's permit 4 years ago and it has made a huge difference (no weather related accidents here). If lake ice is thick enough to drive on-try it out. If you can stop on lake ice-you can stop anywhere.

Quite true ... we seldom get thick enough ice on lakes here in Kansas to drive on, but ponds and creeks do in cold winters. Handy, as a creek makes a great road into the woods to get more firewood when the winter gets nasty.

Ice and packed snow, my main bit of advice is:

- Practice - in every vehicle you are likely to drive (RWD pickups are VERY different than a FWD sedan, etc)

- Smooth - steering, braking, accelerating - smoother is better

- Speed - less is preferred

SNOW AND no ABS

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