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Tranny shop wants to put in "ATF3 + additive"
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Author:  farwellbooth [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Tranny shop wants to put in "ATF3 + additive"
I called a local tranny shop (non-dealer) for a service quote to change the tranny fluid plus filters. I asked if they had ATF4 and the guy said he puts in ATF3 plus an additive that he says is "comparable" to ATF4. This guy certainly knows a heck of a lot more about trannies than me... however I'd really like to do what's right. Is ATF4 some boutique fluid bullsh*t or do I really need to put this stuff in? I'm in this Liberty for the long haul, would like to get 175k out of tranny etc., so it all needs to be right.
Author:  Jeepjeepster [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Wow, 175k is alot without a tranny rebuild. Id say the 42rle tranny would last 125-150k. 45rfe would last longer.
Author:  raceinfan [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
what ever the owners manual says you should do,it may also say on the dip stick not sure but if it calls for it there's a reason,don't let people tell you other wise do whats right,my .02
Author:  chefdab [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:29 am ]
Post subject: 
Remember, if it's not real ATF-4, they'll void your warranty when it breaks.
Author:  JJsTJ [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
They can't void your warranty unless they can prove the fluid caused the failure. I guarantee you can run Amsoil Universal ATF and it Will work way better than ATF+4 and Amsoil will back it up against causing any failures on a good working, well maintained transmission. As far as using ATF+3 and an additive.....Bogus. Use either a real ATF+4 or run Amsoil Universal Synthetic ATF.
Author:  dkcase [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've never heard of using ATF+3 plus an additive to equal ATF+4.

There are the friction modifier products, e.g. by LubeGard, that are for use with Dexron to "convert" for use in place of a different fluid.

Could it have been that ?
Author:  Blue KJ in PA [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
On allpar.com this week they have an artice about tranny fluids and they specifically mention the Dextron with and additive to make it ATF-3 as a major NoNO to be avoided.
Author:  Loopkey [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
dkcase wrote:
I've never heard of using ATF+3 plus an additive to equal ATF+4.


So what every one is saying is that ATF+3+1 is not equal to ATF+4... :shock:
Author:  Jeepjeepster [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Loopkey wrote:
dkcase wrote:
I've never heard of using ATF+3 plus an additive to equal ATF+4.


So what every one is saying is that ATF+3+1 is not equal to ATF+4... :shock:


Haha, thats exactly what everyone is saying. Its one of those weird math things. :lol:
Author:  kickit_in4wheel [ Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:59 am ]
Post subject: 
Guys, this is a very common practice amongst the "quick lube" type places. I contacted two separate lube shops in my town for a quote on a tranny flush and fill, and when I asked if they used ATF+4, they said yeah, but further pressure made them confess that they use ATF+3 and a lube additive that is supposed to enhance the ATF+3 to the same standards as the ATF+4. Maybe it would be ok, but I'm not willing to take the chance. That said, the shops were willing to drain, flush, and replace the filter, and then re-fill with ATF+4 that I could get from Autozone on my own. However, it basically works out to costing very close to what the dealer charges when you buy your own filter and fluid.

Rick
Author:  blackjeep [ Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:04 am ]
Post subject: 
JJsKJ wrote:
I guarantee you can run Amsoil Universal ATF and it Will work way better than ATF+4 and Amsoil will back it up against causing any failures on a good working, well maintained transmission.


not knocking you or amsoil but these are pretty steep statements. the way you word it, sounds like this. use ATF+4 and dealer will warranty your tranny. use anything else and dealer has to prove it was the lube that did the damage. all good. but, use amsoil and you would have to prove your tranny was in good working condition and well maintained (which could be difficult as it would be damaged when making a claim).

to me i'd stick with ATF+4 - even if you eventually won against the dealer or amsoil it would most likely be a major pain.
Author:  Albert [ Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:42 am ]
Post subject: 
I have to agree with blackjeep............If D/C and the dealer ( these are the people that warranty the thing) say you should only use ATF + 4 - - then you should use it. Then you will not have a warrenty issue.

I had a trans problem years ago with a vehicle in warranty. Dealer did the tranny flush. They just replaced it. Under amount due it just said "warranty"........ I was happy.
Author:  Guyute1210 [ Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Goto the AMSOil page, and search for their ATF oil.
Quote:
AMSOIL ATF is recommended for transmission, hydraulic and other applications requiring any of the following specifications:

* GM DEXRON® II & III
* Ford MERCON®, MERCON® V
* Chrysler ATF+ through ATF+4®
* Honda Z-1 (Not for use in CVT transmissions)
* Toyota Type T and T-IV
* Mitsubishi/Hyundai Diamond SP II & III
* Allison C-3, C-4
* Caterpillar TO-2
* Voith G607, G1363
* ZF TE-ML 14A, 14B & 14C
* Mercedes Benz 236.1, 236.2, 236.6, 236.7, 236.9
* BMW 7045E
* JWS 3309
* Vickers I-286S & M-2950S
* LT 71141 (ESSO)
* Nissan Matic D


Their specs are also on the page and are better than the ATF+4 specs.
Author:  JJsTJ [ Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Guyute1210 wrote:
Goto the AMSOil page, and search for their ATF oil.
Quote:
AMSOIL ATF is recommended for transmission, hydraulic and other applications requiring any of the following specifications:

* GM DEXRON® II & III
* Ford MERCON®, MERCON® V
* Chrysler ATF+ through ATF+4®
* Honda Z-1 (Not for use in CVT transmissions)
* Toyota Type T and T-IV
* Mitsubishi/Hyundai Diamond SP II & III
* Allison C-3, C-4
* Caterpillar TO-2
* Voith G607, G1363
* ZF TE-ML 14A, 14B & 14C
* Mercedes Benz 236.1, 236.2, 236.6, 236.7, 236.9
* BMW 7045E
* JWS 3309
* Vickers I-286S & M-2950S
* LT 71141 (ESSO)
* Nissan Matic D


Their specs are also on the page and are better than the ATF+4 specs.


Correct. Thanks for listing that. I was mentioning the warranty issue because many think that the dealer can just deny a warranty claim because of using different brands or differently rated fluids or extending service intervals with higher quality lubes. The dealer can Try to deny a claim but they will not fight it once Amsoil has "Their people" contact the dealer or manufacturer.
Author:  Milous [ Wed May 03, 2006 4:58 am ]
Post subject: 
I don't understand why anyone would want to use anything but ATF+4. What possible advantage is there besides saving a few dollars??? Amsoil can offer all of the guarantees they want but who wants to hassle with trying to prove or disprove a transmission issue should one arise. Amsoil is a "universal" fluid and that should tell you that compromises have been made. Look at the list of vehicles that it "works" with. Isn't it amazing that Amsoil figured out how to manufacture a fluid that is claimed by them to be "better" than all of the specific fluids designed by all of the transmission engineers of the different car companies? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Until recently ATF+4 was proprietary and there is no way Amsoil or any other company had access to the exact ingredients used, ingredients that are important for the best possible operation of the transmission. Plenty of people have had issues after substituting alternates fluids in their transmissions. But you will never find anyone who has had fluid-caused problems when using the spec'd ATF+4. Seems like a no-brainer to me. The only fluid my Jeep tranny will ever see is ATF+4.
Author:  JJsTJ [ Wed May 03, 2006 1:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Amsoil Universal Synthetic ATF Beats all the standards listed. That is how it will work in all those transmissions listed. In all theses years of Amsoil being around they have never lost a challenge on their stance on warranty claims. Usually all it takes is a letter or call to the dealer or manufacturer to get them to change their tune. (There are still dealers out there that don't get the Magnusson-Moss act.)
Regardless, I Will say that proper maintanance of your transmission with ATF+4 should allow it to last a long time but using Amsoil will not harm it in any way and I would bet it will last even longer And allow you to extend your service intervals.
Author:  Milous [ Wed May 03, 2006 7:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
JJsKJ wrote:
Amsoil Universal Synthetic ATF Beats all the standards listed. That is how it will work in all those transmissions listed. In all theses years of Amsoil being around they have never L.O.S.T. a challenge on their stance on warranty claims. Usually all it takes is a letter or call to the dealer or manufacturer to get them to change their tune. (There are still dealers out there that don't get the Magnusson-Moss act.)
Regardless, I Will say that proper maintanance of your transmission with ATF+4 should allow it to last a long time but using Amsoil will not harm it in any way and I would bet it will last even longer And allow you to extend your service intervals.

How can the Amsoil fluid possibly beat the ATF+4 standards if they had no idea what the ingredients or additives were??

There is no proof anywhere that Amsoil will make a transmission "last longer". WHY would anyone take a chanceon a fluid that was NOT designed by the engineers who built your transmission? It makes absolutely no sense to me, just my opinion.
Author:  Guyute1210 [ Wed May 03, 2006 8:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
the way i would think they could prove this is to buy some ATF+4 and test it, run it through a tranny in a lab and test it again. If there is a difference in how much the oil broke down and how well it can still lubricate, the one that has not broken down as much and can lubricate better will be a better fluid. It's all about testing.
Author:  USAFCOP [ Wed May 03, 2006 8:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Not to hijack, or poke at anyone, but this is how I see this. Many companies such as Amsoil in this case make products that can meet and exceed factory specifications for multiple vehicles, becouse many times if you look at the ingredients and percentages listed (most times you would need to get the Hazmat shipping spec sheet or MSDS) you will find the only difference in the fluids is a name or the name of the friction modifier or detergent/color dye added. Most times even aftermarket ATF+4 is better than MOPAR ATF+4. Remember, the dealer makes cars not oil based products. All Amsoil or Pensoil or Quaker State make are oil based products, so they do far more R&D. The Dealer just looks for a way to make you spend too much by making their stuff proprietary.

I have used the Mopar ATF+4 in my tranny and had one of the quick lube places put ATF+3+ additave in my T-case since 4 was not available when I needed it, and 2 years later, I have had no problems what so ever... And those at MOAB know how hard I wheel. So basically, what you use is up to you, especially if warranty is gone.

Everyone will have an opinion, as a consumer you must do your research to find your facts, just do not only believe company sites, look for independant reviews as well.
Author:  JJsTJ [ Wed May 03, 2006 9:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
I know, a lot to read and I surely don't expect anyone will want to read it but here it is. Bottom line is Amsoil can't make false claims and get away with it. They have had a hand in keeping the FTC focused on product claims so they are scrutinized just like the other big name companies. They are considered by Many to be the best because they pretty much are. They are also the first to admit when they are not. Obviously you can use whatever you want and whatever makes you feel good. I chose to use Amsoil products because I plan on keeping my KJ's forever and they will get the best products I can give them.
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
AMSOIL Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) exceeds the performance requirements for domestic and foreign automatic transmission fluid applications. AMSOIL ATF provides automatic transmissions, power steering units and hydraulic equipment with excellent lubricating protection and better performance over a wider temperature range than conventional automatic transmission fluids.

Resists Oxidation and Thermal Degradation
AMSOIL ATF resists thermal and oxidative degradation better than conventional transmission fluids, protecting clutches, planetary gears, valves, pumps and seals from damaging sludge and varnish deposits. AMSOIL ATF helps prevent component overheating and ensures cooler, smoother transmission operation.

Provides Low Temperature Protection
AMSOIL ATF outperforms petroleum fluids in low temperature fluidity. In fact, AMSOIL ATF offers twice the cold temperature fluidity required by current automatic transmission fluid specifications. AMSOIL ATF provides easier starting, faster warm-ups, smoother shifting and improved fuel economy.

Antiwear Protection
AMSOIL ATF provides smooth shifting and long, trouble-free transmission life. In addition, the
antiwear additive package makes AMSOIL ATF an excellent lubricant in other hydraulic systems. In tests designed to measure wear characteristics under severe service and high pressure operating conditions, AMSOIL ATF far exceeds the requirements of hydraulic equipment manufacturers.

Extends Drain Intervals
AMSOIL ATF is a stable formulation that lasts longer in service than conventional ATFs. It maintains its viscosity, friction and lubricating properties for extended periods of time, even under severe conditions. AMSOIL ATF maximizes transmission performance and service life while reducing maintenance costs through longer drain intervals.



APPLICATIONS
AMSOIL Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid is completely compatible with other synthetic and petroleum automatic transmission fluids. AMSOIL ATF is a universal, multi-functional fluid that greatly reduces the need for specialized fluid inventories and the possibilities of misapplication. AMSOIL ATF is recommended for transmission, hydraulic and other applications requiring any of the following specifications:

GM DEXRON® II & III
Ford MERCON®, MERCON® V
Chrysler ATF+ through ATF+4®
Honda Z-1 (Not for use in CVT transmissions)
Toyota Type T and T-IV
Mitsubishi/Hyundai Diamond SP II & III
Allison C-3, C-4
Caterpillar TO-2
Voith G607, G1363
ZF TE-ML 14A, 14B & 14C
Mercedes Benz 236.1, 236.2, 236.6, 236.7, 236.9
BMW 7045E
JWS 3309
Vickers I-286S & M-2950S
LT 71141 (ESSO)
Nissan Matic D
Excellent for power steering units that use ATF.

Not for use in CVT transmissions.

SERVICE LIFE
AMSOIL Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid is recommended for use up to 60,000 miles under severe service* and up to 100,000 miles under normal service* or according to the vehicle manufacturer recommended intervals, whichever is longer. AMSOIL recommends thoroughly draining the transmission and flushing with new AMSOIL ATF to achieve a minimum 90% purity of new transmission fluid. Drain intervals may be extended further with oil analysis.

* As defined by the vehicle or transmission manufacturer.

HEALTH & SAFETY
This product is not expected to cause health concerns when used for the intended application and according to the recommendations in the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). MSDS's are available upon request at 715-392-7101 or on our website. Keep Out of Reach of Children. Don't pollute. Return used oil to collection centers.

TYPICAL TECHNICAL PROPERTIES
Revised as of 3/06

AMSOIL Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF)

Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
7.5

Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
37.4

Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270)
172

Noack Volatility, % weight loss (ASTM D-5800) 10.1

Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-92) 224 (435)

Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-97)
-52 (-61)

Four Ball Wear Test, Scar in mm; 40 kg, 75°C, 1200 rpm, 1 hr (ASTM D-4172B) 0.40

Brookfield Viscosity (cP) -20°C = 1342

Brookfield Viscosity (cP) -40°C = 9621
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