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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:56 pm 
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More than $700,000,000,000 (700 BILLION) in tax payer funded bailout ths week. Yes be concerned, all investments are a gamble. Be concerned but do not panic. At this time the markets will either repair themselves and you will be okay, or a major collapse will happen and it won't really matter. The times of "slight variance" are going out, the markets need to naturally stabilze for better or worse. Government action will only delay but not stop the balance. I believe the economic "change" that happened in Argentina a few years ago is a good indicator of our future. Investments will stiil hold a compairable value, the problem is if the value of the dollar drops too far, a $10,000 investment drops in value proportion. Do a google search on "austrian economics", these guys have been spot on for a while.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:03 pm 
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I would just like to applaud the respondants above for keeping this on finances and not going too political. Now if we could just get the rest of the country to react this way, we would be set.

my $.02 ... this is part of the natural progression of the financial world ... small ripples, big ripples, major waves ... the economy will recover, you just have to make it until the up-swing. How bad is this dip going to be, there are too many variables for anyone to accurately predict. The best we can do it try to solidify our positions and hope for the best.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:38 pm 
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I think the situation we are in is a direct result of the loose monetary policies stemming from the tech crash in 2001.

The fed worried about the tech crash and wanted to give it a softer landing switched to loose monetary policy. So since everyone took a loss on the equities market, the fixed income securities market became the place to put your money.

Prior to this MBCO (Mortgage Backed Collateralized Obligations) were unheard of to be investing in. But all of a sudden, the low interest rates fueled spending on homes, vacation homes, refinances and such. All of these instruments are MBCO and next thing you know people are buying and trading these not just as banks but also in fund families such as your fund families in your 401k.

Since there was such a demand to fill these MBCO's lenders began to loosen the qualifications (supply and demand working here). Since the demand was high, banks and lenders needed to underwrite more of these MBCO's and that were a credit risk. However, the bundled tranches that were made with these MBCO's were made in a calculated fashion so that exposure to default was limited. Never in their dreams did sellers and buyers of MBCO think that the tranches they set up would get to this level of default.

The holders now in terms of longevity of MCBO's were locked in to holding these tranches and no way of getting rid of them until the maturity dates. So in effect when the bottom fell out, they were stuck holding a devalued asset.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:16 pm 
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Well, a little time has passed since I initially started this thread. I do believe, beyond a shadow of doubt, that our economy is heading South. Banks are tightening opportunities for loans, 401K’s are starting to see the impact, the housing market has just gotten worse, people are pulling money out of their IRA’s, the value of the dollar has hit new record lows, and unemployment continues to climb. I do not pretend to understand the situation that we are in nor can I interpret the magnitude of it’s complexity. Beyond the chaos, I can not sit here and expect the government and the financial instructions to solve the world‘s problem of greed. With this being said, here is what I have learned from this chapter in life.

1. Pay off all my credit cards, close them out, run them through the shredder, and never rely on them again.
2. Pay off all my vehicles (Truck, Jeep, Travel Trailer)
3. Pay off my home
4. Only pay cash for all future purchases (education, automobiles, food, etc.)
5. Sell all my investment properties (2 more left)
6. I will diversify my future funds, (livestock, precious metals, property, and other tangible items)
7. Rely on my own retirement. (Do not rely on stocks, 401K’s, retirements, or Social Security)
8. Learn that greed is real. “Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless.” - Ecclesiastes 5:10

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:27 pm 
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Yeah - Just today I heard the Governator of California is whining to the feds the state may be broke soon. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:54 am 
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One thing, do not close off your cards. This can have a negative affect on your credit rating. I realize that you said that you were never going to use them again, but if you need an emergency supply of cash then this may cause you some problems in the future.

By all means, pay them off and pay cash. That is very smart, but every 6 months the bank may give you a credit limit raise without a credit check. (maybe that is a Canadian thing) Take advantage of this, even if you never intend to use it.

If an emergency comes up, you have a high credit limit already in place, you do not have to go looking for a source of emergency cash. With the rest of your plan, you can pay off the credit card balance pretty quickly if that emergency does comes up.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:47 am 
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1. Pay off all my credit cards. Done! They get paid in full every month!
2. Pay off all my vehicles. Getting close, should be finished in a year or less.
3. Pay off my home. Not doing it....need a tax write off.
4. Only pay cash for all future purchases. I charge the Amex & write a check, pay balance in Full every month, Earn the rebates = $$ in pocket!!
5. Sell all my investment properties. Wish I had them to sell but looking at aquiring one in this down market.
6. I will diversify my future funds. Currently looking at prec. metals, real estate, and some safer funds to diversify into.
7. Rely on my own retirement. Seems too far away to even think about.....

8. Learn that greed is real. “Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless.” - Ecclesiastes 5:10 Isn't that the truth.... :?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:56 am 
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I have debated whether I should post to this or not and have come to the conclusion that I would feel horrible if I could have raised a voice and made a difference, and didn't. I have had many worried, sleepless nights these past two weeks, even before then, and though I cannot give financial advice, I can hopefully give some insight.

The market has always come back to beat what it once was before, ...if you have the time. It took the Dow 25 years to get to the point prior to the 1929 crash; there were sixteen years of economic slowdown wrapped around the 70's after the boom of the 50's-60's. We are in uncharted waters. What we are facing is no less than the complete dissolution of valueless fiat currency, the fractional reserve system, in short the total world economic system. If this G7 plan does not work, we are in free fall because the world cannot create debt to get out of debt. And the debt is huge and infects every facet of our monetary system and like a web it is all tied together. Like dominoes... International shipping has now begun to stop because no one wants to do it on credit, fearing they will not get paid back. The same with commercial paper (promissory notes, very short term loans) which is the grease that keeps the gears of our economy rolling, from shipping to payroll. Our economic system runs on credit and when credit dries up and one doesn't have enough capital to cover the lack of credit, one is in serious trouble. This is what the world is facing. If this plan fails to instill confidence for the remaining banks to start lending again, this will then force countries to "take care of their own" in these possibly tough times and all the dangers that that entails as it becomes every country for themselves. The worst case scenario is that credit remains frozen by the banks as they try to hold onto their money in case of a further fall and to cover their own debt. This stops shipping/trucking domestically and abroad (think food). This stops payroll. This stops revenue. This stops spending. This creates a further weakening of the system and financial markets. This dries up credit. This makes the banks hold on even tighter to what they have left. It is a terrible feedback loop. It is so serious that governments worldwide have taken on the responsibilities of the banks. No one wants to see a world financial collapse and great minds are working on a solution. I pray that we can make some changes in the coming worldwide recession because if whatever plan they have brewing does not work then the alternative makes me terribly, terribly sad. It will not be the end of the world, but it will be the end of the world as we know it.

EDITORIAL - In the long term, if we are wise and we American citizens start to take some responsibility for our government, the economic system here in the states, which will need to be revamped anyway, can become more equitable. Trickle down Chicago school economics, used by both sides of the aisle and all around the world, has now been proven to be false and my greatest fear is that without change, when the inequalities become too great, its precepts will have to be enforced by the point of a gun. Somewhere in our recent past our government stopped being a government and became a business. The business went broke spending more than it had. Remember, WE are the government and abdicating our responsibility generation after generation has led us to where we are now, at the edge of the abyss. If we don't take responsibility, then someone else will...and did.

And for those eternal optimists...

Capitalists will always survive because they will get Socialists to bail them out. - C-span

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:51 pm 
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AZScout, I think you made some good points, and I think you are pretty accurate in your description. Perhaps you were riding on the political fence a little, so I hope the moderators will grant you a right of passage. So, with what you just said, surely you have some financial advice. Credit is something I have always used and relied on. I’ve always had excellent credit but now banks aren’t looking at my credit score alone, they are also looking at my debt to income ratio. Even though I have never missed a payment or had a late payment in my entire credit history, the banks are pretty dang tight. My credit score has come down from 720 to 680 pretty quickly. The Credit Union’s method (formula) for calculating credit score must have changed because nothing financially has changed on my end. As an investor, I have random sources of income coming in at sporadic times, but the banks do not consider these sources adequate income anymore. Before, I could explain my financial situation and there was never a problem. But now there is a problem. So what do you recommend one do? Invest? Diversity? Pay off all debt and live in a cave?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:40 pm 
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I completely understand that those who read this thread do not care about my personal decisions, but for the record I have made another decision. Tomorrow, my wife and I will stop all funding that we are putting into our IRA roths. I know that sounds petty, but I can assure you it is a sizable amount. Instead of continuing to pay in, we are going to stop payments and put those funds in a much safer place. I know that many of you would argue that this is the best time to buy shares at very low prices. But for some reason, I have this weird feeling that this economy is going south in a very big way. Many big financial institutions are already bankrupt, and others such as Wells Fargo and Bank of America are knocking on the door to bankruptcy. And guess what? FDIC said they don’t have enough to insure everyone. The Federal government said that some of the big financial institutions might be in a position to source out some of the home loans to smaller “local home town” banks as part of their discussions. Now with the addition of the world economy being impacted, I do not think anyone really knows to what extent the economy will deteriorate or when it will recover. Anyway, those are my thoughts………………

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 Post subject: For those interested...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:17 am 
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Last weekend, Henry Paulson called a meeting at the US Treasury to be attended by the head of the nine largest banks. At the table were nine binders and inside were two pages. Every head had to sign that document before they left the room. In that document was a provision that each bank had to sell to the Treasury preferred non-voting shares totaling $125 billion dollars. They would all sign as a united front whether they needed the funds or not. The head of Wells Fargo balked at this intrusion of the government into the private sector in this manner. This would be expected from the head of a bank that had little exposure (prior to its buyout of Wachovia) to the derivatives market. But in the end, they all blinked, and signed. The same thing was occurring across the Atlantic in Europe. In the end, on Monday morning, it was reported that the banks in Europe and now the United States were part nationalized. This in turned began to loosen the credit market and the rates that the banks charge to other banks and large corporations began to fall. The grease to the gears was starting to work and on Monday, the markets reflected that realization posting record rises across the world. On Wednesday, the specter of worldwide depression retreated only to be replaced by the dim dawn of reality, and that was the fact commerce worldwide was slowing down. The largest gain ever in the Dow was followed by its fifth largest drop. People may never know how close we were to the end. That Monday, there was a possibility of a "silent" run on banks by large corporations that would have bankrupted the banks as they would not be able to cover all the withdrawals. So, chin up. All the fundamentals are getting worse but we can deal with that and have dealt with it before. However, we could not have dealt with losing most of our banks in one day. Last Monday we dodged a financial Armageddon.

What to do for the future?

I cannot give specific financial advice, but generally the steps that dieselenthusiast outlined are sound. You want to get out of any kind of debt as fast as possible. Look at the terms of the financial agreement for your credit cards. They reserve the right to raise the rates at any time with you having no recourse but arbitrage. Good luck. In the short to mid term cash will become more important and potentially the more you have the better. If you are investing for the long haul, it is better to be invested than not and remember that trying to market time on a consistent basis is a failed strategy and besides, everything is now on sale. If you do invest, be as diversified as possible including overseas. Tangible assets may be a good thing to have but bear in mind as we unwind this built up leverage things may possibly get cheaper. I've read something to the effect that "things bought on credit (cars, houses, etc.) will become cheaper, things bought without credit (food, entertainment, everyday goods) will become more expensive. Other than that, who knows? I plan to slow down. Become more aware. Learn a skill as the application can be used to gain capital or goods. Realize we are all in this together. Have fun...

Possible effects?

From the financial papers that I've read we are in the throes of history. We have already seen the disappearance of investment banks. They are all gone, some being around for over 150 years. We will lose about a third to a half of our hedge funds, between 700 and 1000 smaller banks, many companies of all types and sizes and many many jobs. We face a severe worldwide recession at least two years in length and we have piled on enough debt that it will take our grandchildren to pay it off. So far, with what we spent saving our way of life, we racked up debt to the tune of about $100,000k per household and we are not yet done with the bailouts (AIG needed another $38 billion added to the $80 billion we already gave them). The danger in all of this is that we have to find someone out there to buy four billion dollars of our debt per day. Someday, they may decide buying U.S. debt may not be such a good idea. Can they ever pay it back? The saving grace is that our dollar is still the currency of world commerce and that the idea of de-coupling (having the rest of the world de-couple from the U.S economy reducing exposure to any infection), in the short term, will not work. If we stop our nine trillion dollars of consumption per year, the two and a half trillion of the rest of the world cannot pick up the slack. We have to stop selling our debt to the world and start selling something that is produced. As an extreme example, Iceland owed in their malinvestments 14 times what they produced in GDP. Now, no one will accept their money. They essentially are bankrupt because they leveraged themselves too much. We will probably see this happening to other countries. Today Hungary asked the IMF for a loan to help them through their own woes. It will be a bad time but remember, change is opportunity. We are a great nation because we were based on an idea, not on any financial or military strength. That idea and ideal allowed us the freedom to think and solve problems in new ways. People around the world call it American Ingenuity. It's the very thing that got us in trouble with the "shadow economy" of derivatives, but it is also the very thing that will pull us out. That is our greatest capital but it depends on everyone playing their part.

Sorry for the long post. I just hoped to give some insight into what has been happening in the financial world.

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 Post subject: Half-million jobs vanish as economy deteriorates
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:10 am 
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Well, my predictions so far are coming true, I think "LIFE" is about to get harder for a lot of people. :(

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081205/ap_ ... l_meltdown

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