I can't seem to find the conversation and I don't remember the forum it was on but there were several dissatisfied optima owners that had nothing good to say and a rep from optima chimed in on the conversation. I'll continue to look for it but my mind was changed as I had every intention to purchase a yellow top and now I'm thinking the die hard made by odyssey or an odyssey. Check around and listen to what people are saying about optimas made in the last five years (I think). The problems seem to coincide with the purchase of the company by Johnson Controls.