I give up! 2.5 inches is used to broadly - it means nothing as a quoted figure for a particular lift unless you know the start point it is taken from - and every start point is different because every Jeep is different! So there is no benchmarked average low starting point. That's what we need to ascertain.

Can anyone else not see this????!!!!

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2005 KJ CRD Cherokee (Liberty) Extreme Sport, ARB bar and IPF lights, Rocky Road Combo lift (Daystar 1.5inch spacer with RR strut top plate and factory springs) with OME struts (front), OME 947 with Rancho RSX17004 shocks (rear), all Mopar skid plates, Tow Hitch, BFG 245/70/16 AT's Pics.

So I don't understand your question. If every Jeep is different (from your own words), then how can you give an acurate change in height.
What I think they mean is the AVERAGE new height minus the AVERAGE starting point is about 2.5" But like you said every Jeep is different so averages are just averages. Alot of time you don't get the average. Are you looking for more of a range of height increases?

Hmm, i see what your saying. But after the lift every jeep should be the same height. It doesnt matter where they start, with a full spring lift, they will all end up at the same height. If your do a spacer lift it will not be the same for all jeeps. I think the libby should come from the factory at least 1 in higher like they did in 2002, perfect height for the libby.

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LOST KJ'S
Where are you going???
Current Jeep: 2004 Jeep Liberty
-Atlantic Blue
-Air Ride Rear Suspension ; OME/Rustys Lift ; Powertrax Locker ; Moog Lower Ball-Joints ; 245/70/16 Yokohama Geolander A/T-S's on MOABS ; Flowmaster 50 SUV
Lost #007082
http://www.cardomain.com/id/jeepjeepster

Ok, here's my shot at explaining the 2.5"

Short Version:
The 2.5" is above the DESIGNED ride height of an 02 KJ- not anyones ACTUAL ride height or the ride height of the "lowered" Liberties.

Long Version:
The KJ originally came out with a DESIGNED ride height in 02.
(NOTE: the springs which are put on by the manufacturer vary, and will give you a taller or shorter ride overall- your ACTUAL ride height- but does not change the DESIGNED ride height)

People start screwing around with suspensions; companies start looking into making lifts.

Companies design lifts based on the DESIGNED ride height of the Liberty and make a lift based on calculations and testing. They figure that the CV joints will be a limiting factor. They use the DESIGNED ride height, and maybe throw in statistical varience and field tests to determine what works for the CV joints. The lift is designated a 2.5" lift because it lifts the DESIGNED ride height by 2.5" -- which is not to be confused with your ACTUAL ride height which is determined by the variance in springs that came from the factory.

Later on Jeep keeps the Liberty suspension, but puts on smaller springs. The manufacturers see no need to re-engineer their lifts because they've allready done the Research and Design. Theoretically, they could market the same lift for 02 Libby as a 2.5" lift, and rename the same lift as a 3" lift for 03+ KJ's (assuming the DESIGNED ride height of the 03's was .5 " bigger than the 02's).

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Frankenlift
Boulderbars
All J Tranny skid
31x9.5 SS TSLs!
Detroit Truetrac/Powertrax
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2062875

Yes, I agree re designed ride height - but what is this? I still think we need a measurement, like the arch to lower rim, to define what is perhaps this 'designed ride height'. Then people can measure the lifts they design relative to this measurement. If we can't get the designed ride height measurement, then we need to know this measurement for a lifted KJ, which has been assessed by experts as the maximum permissible lift without running into CV problems.

Its more important to know what the 'safe' lift height is in terms of an actual measurement for people using spacer lifts. Take for example a petrol model sitting at 27 inches stock, then take a CRD sitting at 28 inches stock. Add a Daystar 2.5 inch Spacer to each, the CRD is always going to be 1 inch taller than the petrol because the starting points were different. Sure, if you replace the spring with a new one, like an OME, then theoretically the cars should work out about the same height, because it is the spring controlling the height. The benchmark reference point is more important to the guys fitting spacer lifts to their cars and retaining the stock springs. That extra inch that the CRD starts with, in combination with a 2.5inch spacer, might mean that its too high and cv angles are a problem. In reality, a CRD owner would be better off using the 1.5 inch Daystar spacer, then his car would work out the same height as the petrol model with the 2.5inch spacer fitted.

We need to work towards some sort of measurement that everyone can use to assess where there car is sitting in the first place versus where it should be after lifted, so as not to exceed the 'safe' cv angles. This would mean we could all make an informed decision as to which spacer to use with our particular car/stock spring to give the maximum 'safe' lift.

And....if we fitted a Frankenlift, where our car now sits relative to the accepted Frankenlift 'norm'. There's been plenty of posts from guys who think their Frankenlifts have been too high. If they knew the norm, then perhaps they could take out the Daystar spacer in the Frankenlift and this would give them the 'safe' lifted height. The differences can be attributable to different springs (medium vs heavy), bar vs no bar, and different struts - in combination these things can add up to an inch difference between different cars both using a Frankenlift!

If Clint and Quinn can get together and measure a Frankenlift with stock 16inch wheels from lower rim to arch, on a car that they believe to be within the safe lift height, and let us all know the measurement, then we have a fairly accurate benchmark to work by.

I believe this measurement (front) should be no more than 29.5 inches or 750mm from the research I've done and the cars I've seen.

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2005 KJ CRD Cherokee (Liberty) Extreme Sport, ARB bar and IPF lights, Rocky Road Combo lift (Daystar 1.5inch spacer with RR strut top plate and factory springs) with OME struts (front), OME 947 with Rancho RSX17004 shocks (rear), all Mopar skid plates, Tow Hitch, BFG 245/70/16 AT's Pics.

Seriously man, you are thinking about it way too much. If you are still confused just give Quinn at call and ask him your questions and he will help you choose the right lift for your needs. He has a ton of experience and knows a ton about lifting a KJ, the combinations of all the different parts. They have tried just about all of them out. Plus he is a really nice guy and willing to help you out.

I'm not confused at all, in fact I know exactly what I am going to do with my car. I'm trying to make it easier for other new owners that are thinking of lifting their cars to make sense of all the info on the forum!

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2005 KJ CRD Cherokee (Liberty) Extreme Sport, ARB bar and IPF lights, Rocky Road Combo lift (Daystar 1.5inch spacer with RR strut top plate and factory springs) with OME struts (front), OME 947 with Rancho RSX17004 shocks (rear), all Mopar skid plates, Tow Hitch, BFG 245/70/16 AT's Pics.

All lifts are like this. When I helped a buddy put a 4 inch lift on his 3/4 ton suburban, he got more like 5 inches because his springs were sagging. The biggest difference in height is prelowered versus lowered which is 3/4 of an inch. If you do a full suspension lift- an '02 that is prelowered will sit at the same height as a lowered '03. Its that simple. Saying that this site is full of misinformation is a little harsh because all of this stuff is TRUE and base on our personal experiences. My 2.5 inch lift gave me 2.5 inches, the 3/8" clevis lift gave me 3/8" of an inch and the 255/70's gave me a half inch. I know this because I measured mine bone stock from the ground to the skidplate.

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'02 KJ Sport V6 4x4
3/8" Clevis lift
Rusty's 2.5 lift
255/70/R16 Fleet Farm All Terrain (yes they work)
Class 3 hitch
Hellas
Police Scanner/CB radio
LOST #: JH061986

Out of ALL Frankinlifts that have gone out assembled, not one has maxed out any C/V's that we are aware of. We have shipped out enough Frankenlifts to have a very good average. Ride height is something that will effect every KJ that is lifted. 2.5" is a close guideline. If the the KJ is sagging before the lift, then the appearance of 3" or 4" of lift is possible. Also we set up Frankenlifts with Rancho Struts, and warranty complete assembled struts. We can only help so much for the do it yourselfers doing their own assembly and using their own parts. Please also remember that a call to us about our products will most times be a good starting point for issues Also keep in mind only assembled struts that we send out are Frankenlift Struts. DIY versions are parts put together. We are very flexible and allow for tech support on these DIY setups becuse these set ups and posts will effect our rep on these lifts.

Roy, a simple call would be a good start to help resolve your troubles.

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Quinn " Macgyver" Thomas
KF6IQX
97 TJ "Mine after 10 years, I had to buy Heather a JK to get it"
1968 Jeep M715
2007 Rubicon Unlimited 4 door JK

my update right now i am still just running the ome springs front 926md and rear 947 light duty. and ome struts and shocks. with the stock front coil spacers and stock upper strut mount. i still got 2 3/4 lift up front and and 2 1/2 in back. truck sits good rides good. but i get alot of bump steer hitting small pot holes .. bad streets i got a wheel alignment done 2 times on a brand new hunter machine. the front is 100% in specs. but i still get alot of bump steer. my tires are revos 245 r 70 16. i think the bump steer is from the tie rods pointing down so much. does anyone else have this problem. also my ground clearance from the front skid to ground is at least 10 inchs. is my jeep just up to high.

With my larger tires, my clearance is at 11" under the tranny skid. I've had no problems post lift with the stearing- especially on the smaller bumpy stuff. The first time I took it off road was through some washboards/small dirtbike whoopdedoos, and speedbumps- definately noticed ride over speedbumps was much better.

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Frankenlift
Boulderbars
All J Tranny skid
31x9.5 SS TSLs!
Detroit Truetrac/Powertrax
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2062875

You just said what I've been trying to explain....

BUT - A pre-lowered 02, and lowered 03 sit at different heights to start with. So how can a lift advertised as a 2.5 inch lift, give each owner 2.5 inches of lift when compared to their original setup? They can't. The pre-lowered 02 is going to get less lift, and the lowered 03 more, relative to their starting points.

That's why it's so confusing......many of the posts on this site are based on the person's OWN personal experiences. I stand by my comment re the misinformation.

And what I am proposing to alleviate this problem is that everyone that posts 'my lift gave me 2.5 inches' also posts 'my KJ's front arch to lower wheel rim measurement on standard 16inch wheels is now x inches'.

Unless of course, someone else has a better measurement which is going to be reproduceable between all the different models??

Just for a minute, imagine that every company that made a lift, installed it on a special vehicle designated the 'lift benchmark KJ'. This mythical KJ sat at 27inches (arch to lower rim) stock and this was well documented. So when Frankenlift put their lift on the front, it went up to 29.5 - 2.5 inches of lift. When Rusty's put their lift on - it went up to 30 inches - a 3.0 inch lift, and when Daystar put their spacer lift on it went up to 29.5 inches - a 2.5 inch lift.

Every company producing a lift would then have their lift tested against a nominated starting point (the mythical KJ). So when comparing lifts, the buyer can look at the spec and say to themselves 'Company A's lift is going to give 2.5inches on a car that sat at 27inches stock (brought it to 29.5), so this means to me the same lift on my car, which sits at 28 inches at the moment, will mean I'll only get 1.5 inches from where it sits now.

Now, the poor uninitiated new KJ buyer goes looking for lifts - and stumbles across this site - his car (an 03 KJ) measures 27 inches stock and he thinks to himself, I want the full 2.5inches of lift, I think I'll buy the Company X full suspension (spring) lift after all the great reviews. So he buys this and he's expecting 2.5 inches of lift. Little did the new KJ owner know however, that the Company X lift was designed on a pre-lowered 02 (which lets say for this example sits an inch higher than an 03 - so it was 28 to start with), so when he fits the lift, his car goes up to 30.5inches - 3.5 inches more than what he thought it was going to be. He's really worried now, because on the forum everyone is telling him that he doesn't want more than 2.5inches of lift or his CV joints are going to break!!! What's he going to do???!!!

Granted, this is a hypothetical situation, but it serves to illustrate that without a reference measurement, every-time someone posts 'X Company's lift gave me 2.5inches' their comments are just waiting to be mis-interpreted by someone else reading them.

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2005 KJ CRD Cherokee (Liberty) Extreme Sport, ARB bar and IPF lights, Rocky Road Combo lift (Daystar 1.5inch spacer with RR strut top plate and factory springs) with OME struts (front), OME 947 with Rancho RSX17004 shocks (rear), all Mopar skid plates, Tow Hitch, BFG 245/70/16 AT's Pics.

First of all, pre-lowered Libs have taller front springs (I've read appx 3/4 - 7/8 in taller) than lowered Libs. If you put these taller springs in a newer lowered Lib you'd bring it up to the same height as a pre-lowered Lib. Another example, if you removed the springs from both a pre-lowered and lowered Lib, and parked them side by side, they would sit at the same height (of course the strut would be bottomed out and they'd both sit really low). The point is, once you remove the OEM factory spring, you are starting at square one, ie. the same designed ride height. The rest of the front suspension is identical across all years of the Liberty. Whatever new spring you install, 2.5 - 3in, whatever, you should end up with that amount of lift. Ride height is determined only by the lift of the spring. You could say the pre-lowered's have almost one inch of lift over lowered Libs.

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JW
'05 DK Renegade
OME HD, 255x70 BFG AT's
Moog LBJ's
CJ > XJ > KJ

Now all one needs to know is whether manufacturers designed their lifts on pre-lowered 02's or lowered 03's, and exactly how low each of these are......

Then one's own KJ can be compared to these, and bingo - you know exactly how much lift you are likely to end up with!


If you are a newbie reading this thread, thinking about lifting your KJ - then points to bear in mind:-

1) Manufacturers of spring lifts quote their lift figures based on the platform they used to engineer the lift - either a pre-lowered 02 model or a lowered 03 (3/4inch lower).

2) No one can give a measurement that tells you how the height at which each of these base platforms acutally sit stock (as far as I can see).

3) Wheel arch to lower rim (using stock 16inch rims) is a common measurement to use as a reference but so far very few people and no manufactuers quote these measurements either stock or after their lifts

3) Your car may sit lower or higher relative to the base platforms when it is straight from the factory (there's 10 or more different springs used in KJ's)

4) If fitting a SPRING lift (replacing stock springs) - the lift you end up with on the front may not be the full amount quoted by the manufactuer or it may be more

5) If fitting a SPACER lift with your current springs, then you will get the quoted lift of the manufacturer within 1/4 an inch generally

6) Ask people posting about their spring lifts what their final arch to lower rim measurements are - as these are the most useful way of comparing where your car will sit once lifted with the same spring lift they used

7) From the reasearch I've done, a lowered 03 sits around 27inches at this measurement stock, and a pre-lowered closer to 28inches. A lifted KJ shouldn't exceed 30 inches, otherwise CV problems could occur.

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2005 KJ CRD Cherokee (Liberty) Extreme Sport, ARB bar and IPF lights, Rocky Road Combo lift (Daystar 1.5inch spacer with RR strut top plate and factory springs) with OME struts (front), OME 947 with Rancho RSX17004 shocks (rear), all Mopar skid plates, Tow Hitch, BFG 245/70/16 AT's Pics.

The measurement issue is not just a lift thing, it's pretty much everywhere:

27" color TV, 19" monitor. Do you think it's exactly 27"? 19" monitors say "(17.5" viewable)" or something on them.

The 31" tires on wrangler rubicons (245/75R16) are actually 30.5"

And the ground clearance of a stock Liberty is 9.6" (6.5" actual)

And as such a 2.5 lift is just that, a lift that is 2.5 when measured from some starting point (in the case of the frankenlift, I believe the starting point is a lowered liberty with an average spring).

So I can see why it is confusing - some lifts marketed as a 3" or 3.5" are more like 2 or 2.5, and some that are 1.5 are more like 2.5, etc. It's all marketing-ese.

You could compare suspension lifts be the actual lengths of the springs, shocks, and spacers. But then the spring rate, weight, etc come into play and they may still sit differently.

The only way to REALLY compare is to see what other people have done. And asking "how much lift did XXX give you?" is not the right question - you'd need to ask what the resulting height is (All J's recommends measuring from the rock rails or pinch weld)

EDIT: oops, I dragged up an old post, sorry

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Jeff 2005 Jeep Liberty Renegade
4x4, 6spd, Leather, Sunroof, trak-loc, skids/rails, hitch+shackle, hooks, Alpine/iPod, Thule, GPS, CB, Frankenlifted w/ 31" MTRs
Photos Cardomain

Man I keep wishing this post would just go away. I think it is confussing more folks than helping folks. Later...Clint

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