'06 Electronic stability programs as they relate to lockers.

LibertyinPA · **Posted:** Mon May 15, 2006 2:44 pm

Quote:

If both wheels start to spin then esp is going to brake both of those wheels keeping you from spinning which could keep you from getting anywhere. ESP is nice for on-road driving, but off-road I would shoot myself.

So as long as I push the ESP OFF button on my steering column, it should not interfere with an AFTERMARKET limited slip, since they didn't offer one in '06? Or, since the ESP OFF button only disables some of the ESP features, will it still cause interference with the locker?[/quote]

Jeger · **Posted:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:47 pm

mOlson wrote:

The ESP can never be turned completely off even in 4low and pushing the "off" button. In 4low it automatically switches to a semi-on mode which disables the stability control and the traction control allows the wheels to spin more before it applies the brakes. Has worked very well for me in mud and sand where you need a bit of tire speed to "dig" yourself out with the tires.

Firstly in my opinion any time one tire is spinning faster than the other it is a bad thing. Unless you are trying to turn of course.

Okay try this in an 06 with ESP. Put it in 4 HI part time and drive up an incline at an angle (so that you are getting flexed up). I noticed when a tire started to lift I could keep going pretty well. Remember this is a stock 06 no trac-lok or anything just ESP and traction control. Now try the same line in 4 LO. As soon as a tire lifted I could go no further.

I notice that in 4 LO the little esp light comes on to indicate that the esp is off. In 4 HI esp light stays off to indicate that esp is still active. Is there some way I can fool the system so that it does not know If it is in 4 LO? I will probably never add a locker I just want see if there is a simple way to get a bit more traction out of a stock KJ.

moose · **Posted:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:09 pm

I wheeled my 06 Renny down at Slade and kept up with Eddo & Jeepjeepster' moded KJ's just fine. Now, did I roast my clutch and brake a bit? yes, and what a smell that makes!!! Did I need to use my hand break at times in 4LO going up a bench the size of a Dakota? yes. All and all, that's when I decided I could wait on a locker until after my trip to Moab (ok, I really plan to wait on the ECTED for both front & rear). I think that staying open with the '06 is OK for those that don't wheel as hard or as often.

unixxx · **Posted:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:37 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't an LSD keep the rear wheels locked all the time and only unlock them when making a turn? So an LSD is always kicked in.

Guyute1210 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:38 pm

unixxx wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't an LSD keep the rear wheels locked all the time and only unlock them when making a turn? So an LSD is always kicked in.

You got it backwards. A locker is like what you describe if you stay off the throttle during the turn, an LSD is always open until one of the tires slips, then the lsd locks up and transfers some of the power to the other wheel, HTH.

unixxx · **Posted:** Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:59 pm

I was looking this up and am getting even more confused. Some places say LSDs only lock with a large amount of input torque and other places say they only lock when wheel spin increases past a certain threshold. Are there different types of LSDs?

Guyute1210 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:52 pm

unixxx wrote:

I was looking this up and am getting even more confused. Some places say LSDs only lock with a large amount of input torque and other places say they only lock when wheel spin increases past a certain threshold. Are there different types of LSDs?

Well as I see it, the LSD is used when one wheel spins past a certain threashold that causes the clutches in the LSD to lock up; therefore, passing some of that power off to the other tire.

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:16 pm

moose wrote:

I wheeled my 06 Renny down at Slade and kept up with Eddo & Jeepjeepster' moded KJ's just fine. Now, did I roast my clutch and brake a bit? yes, and what a smell that makes!!! Did I need to use my hand break at times in 4LO going up a bench the size of a Dakota? yes. All and all, that's when I decided I could wait on a locker until after my trip to Moab (ok, I really plan to wait on the ECTED for both front & rear). I think that staying open with the '06 is OK for those that don't wheel as hard or as often.

Hes right, his jeep went everywhere my jeep with a locker did and did just as well. Im going to take back what I said about not wanting a libby with esp, it does great on the trails. His wheels would lift right off the ground and spin alittle but you could watch the TC kick in. The wheel would still spin but gave the other wheel enough torque to keep you going.

And yes his clutch did smell really weird! I know what a cluctch smells like but I thought his smelt like a natural gas leak or something. :shock:

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:21 pm

LibertyinPA wrote:

Quote:

If both wheels start to spin then esp is going to brake both of those wheels keeping you from spinning which could keep you from getting anywhere. ESP is nice for on-road driving, but off-road I would shoot myself.

So as long as I push the ESP OFF button on my steering column, it should not interfere with an AFTERMARKET limited slip, since they didn't offer one in '06? Or, since the ESP OFF button only disables some of the ESP features, will it still cause interference with the locker?

[/quote]

I can see the esp interfering with a locker, but I think it would be ok with an LS. Im not to sure on this, but esp could make the locker lock and unlock when it doesnt need to since it transfers torque all over the place when a wheel starts spinning. I could be wrong about all of this though. Its hard to think of what it would do when I cant try it.

Jeger · **Posted:** Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:46 pm

Here is my thinking on this.

The ESP would not interfere with a locker because the locker would lock up before the traction control ever kicked in. Once the locker is locked both wheels turn the same speed. Therefore the traction control would not see one wheel spinning faster than the other and would have no reason to come on.

Limited Slip diffs only work if one wheel begins to spin faster than the other therefore if the traction control/ESP was to stop that wheel spin then the LSD would never engage.

Now if the traction control did not stop enough of the wheel spin the LSD would kick in to get the other wheel moving.

jpzkj · **Posted:** Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:06 pm

Here are some links from our site on how lockers/lsd's and open differentials work. These posts were made prior to ESP being available so you'll have to figure that part out..

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=166

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=183

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=5513

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=179

Need pictures and video of them....

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

This stuff is on our website just check the Tech section

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:16 pm

Jeger wrote:

Here is my thinking on this.

The ESP would not interfere with a locker because the locker would lock up before the traction control ever kicked in. Once the locker is locked both wheels turn the same speed. Therefore the traction control would not see one wheel spinning faster than the other and would have no reason to come on.

Limited Slip diffs only work if one wheel begins to spin faster than the other therefore if the traction control/ESP was to stop that wheel spin then the LSD would never engage.

Now if the traction control did not stop enough of the wheel spin the LSD would kick in to get the other wheel moving.

When the ESP stops (applies braking) to the spinning wheel it would engage the LSD (just like using the hand brake). LSDs actually so work without the wheel having to come off the ground...they are activated by unequal torque force amounts. How "hard" they kickin depends upon the LSD's load preset. The factory LSD has a very low preset and needs a big input to get engagement. Something like the Detroit TruTrac is preset at like 2.5:1 and engages with less driver input. Just depends on the LSD.

Jeger · **Posted:** Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:09 pm

Thanks for correcting me on the LSD Darby. There are/were LSDs that are speed sensitive only. Fortunately ours is apparently not that type.

Someone asked earlier if there are different type of LSD's. The answer is YES there are. Here is one page on them
http://www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm

I believe NOW :oops:

that we have what they are calling a progressive locking LSD. Or a torque/power sensing LSD. Which is much different than what some have described. Our LSD has a built in preload which ties both sided together a very litte bit. If it wasnt for this preload the clutches would not be engaged at all. I believe that the combination of traction control and our LSD would work together well especially if you lift a tire. The lifted "spinning" tire would be slowed by the traction control and engage the LSD even more so. It would be like applying the hand brake like Darby said except you wouldnt get the negative effect of braking the tire with traction.

So in my opinion you could add a locker or a LSD to an 06 with ESP and not have any problems at all.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:03 pm

Makes you wonder ... they didn't put or offer a LSD with the new CRD that has ESP...because the ESP almost gives you the effect of LSD. You can use the e-brake trick on an open diff also and it works...just needs more brake.

Jeger · **Posted:** Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:35 pm

Someone mentioned earlier that the ESP is more active--as in it kicks in with less wheelspin--in high range than it is in low range. I cant say for sure but it seems to be true by what I have tried out. That is why I want to find a way to make the KJ believe it is in 4HI when it is really in 4LO. And I am with you on the Detroit truetrack front and rear. Seems like a really slick combo especially if it works well with the ESP. You would have a capable offroader without compromising street manners

'06 Electronic stability programs as they relate to lockers.

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