Just some general questions........

johnny_posc · **Joined:** Sun May 30, 2010 8:43 pm **Posts:** 69

So I recently posted about a possible starter issue. Now, this is the first winter I'm going through in this jeep and I know my last one had all sorts of seasonal noises that would come up that I got used to. First again though is the starter. When starting there is a sharp, almost grinding noise, that only occurs when starting cold. Today it was worst of all when the quick grind was followed by a slow whine and then nothing. let it run for a few minutes, shut it off and start it up again and it won't do it. Still figuring starter so I'm taking it to a shop tomorrow to get replaced. Was wanting to do it myself but really didn't want to mess with removing the front drive shaft and part of the exhaust as recommended in my repair manual.

But theres other questions. How much play should there be in the front drive shaft? i'm noticing I can turn it about a 1/4 inch or so before it stops. From other recent posts about a vibration under the driver seat (which I have noticed lately) I'm thinking there may be something wrong there.
There is also some binding when in 4hi or lo and turning. I understand there will be some, but at one point the jeep would barely even move forward, and it wasn't even at full turn.

And another....when starting cold and driving just a little bit, if I hit a bump there's a CLUNK coming from the front end. And it doesn't sound good at all but I can't figure out what the hell it would be.

And there is also a new vibration that comes up when idling or just when I hit the gas, but that one is pretty much all the time now.

I know it's fairly long winded but I just want my libby in best working condition at all times. I'm taking it to the shop tomorrow for the starter (I hope thats it) and am going to ask them to go over the front drive shaft and such. But any ideas from anyone or previous experience with anything related above would be great.

Oh and sometimes when I pop the hood I can what looks like small demons hitting various parts of my engine with tiny hammers. That's probably not normal right.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:31 pm

Well no driveshaft removeal required to replace the starter on a 3.7.Just one connector,one small nut,remove 2 mounting bolts,and remove then swap over the heatshield and install.Just make sure the battery is disconnected 1st.

All the other issues sounds like a bad front driveshaft and swaybar endlinks.Possible bad rear u-joints also.

waywardtravel · **Posted:** Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:31 am

Is the start issue fixed? After replacing.
The starter uses a relay to start. They can chatter pretty loud with too low of voltage to the coil side, almost sounds like a grinding but more like a really fast chatter. Your second post says a drawn out whine. When you have a bad contact in a wire or at a connection the arcing electricity can definitely whine not grind or chatter. Maybe you have a bad battery or connection or wire, any would lower voltage to the starter and even the starter bendix can chatter as it kicks in and out. If you have a volt meter put it on the battery and try to start it. If the voltage starts at 12.8 volts +/- .5 volts and drops no more than about 2 volts when you try to start it it's probably not the battery. If you don't have a meter then turn on your headlights and watch to see if they lame really dim while cranking. Here’s something we use in massive engine rooms to find a short circuit. Turn out all the lights throw the faulting breaker and watch for the flash. In other words wait until it's very dark or park in a dark garage try to start it and watch for a flash of blue or yellow light if it works you won't miss it and you save lots of time. The only when cold thing points torwards the battery. But it may be a combination. Did the grind change to a whine or same sound different description?

Front drive shaft play 1/4 inch sounds pretty normal to me.

Does the new vibration that is now all the time happen in nuetral or only while driving. 2 or 4 wheel drive when vibrating.

The clunk can be searched pretty well on this site. Is yours lifted?

Replace your mechanic who changed your starter unless you told him "My starter is bad can you change it"

johnny_posc · **Joined:** Sun May 30, 2010 8:43 pm **Posts:** 69

Got a starter, but the noise is still there. Awesome. Can't really blame the mechanic though. Seeing as the noise only comes up when its crazy cold outside, it was left in the shop overnight. When he tried to start it there was a slight noise that he thought was the starter as well. I just said replace it, in the hopes it would help. Since the past few mornings have been really cold the noise is louder and longer. Its turning into a whine. But as I've stated, it only does it when its cold, and never once the engine is warm.

Had the mechanic check out the FDS as well and all is fine there. I'm a bit of a jeep hypochondriac so I was probably playing that up too much. Read some other information on the clunk though and figure it may be the sway bar bushings.

I'm lost. I'll check the electrical but the sound seems mechanical. And it starts perfectly fine, no hesitation, but just the grind/whine. Its hard to describe.

Thanks for the responses guys. If you've got any more ideas let me know.

johnny_posc · **Joined:** Sun May 30, 2010 8:43 pm **Posts:** 69

Does anyone know if there is a starter relay that could be sticking? I've got my repair manual at home and I'll check the schematic but one suggestion I got from a friend would be if a relay was sticking and kept sending power to the starter then the bendix wouldn't be retracting completely or as fast as it should.

So if there is a relay, where the hell would it be at? And hopefully that would be a cheap repair.

Thanks again.

waywardtravel · **Posted:** Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:13 pm

Many Many different things could cause this. I will not pretend to know the Jeep liberty better than anyone on this site. And I would listen to TjKj2002 from reading this forum for a while. Some of us have have extremely packed technical design, build, and repair background. Someone who has had this happen on a liberty might jump in once we get more information. Problem is the noise is changing which means it's closer to failing now. Hopefully it's not the oil pump or something driven by the engine for that matter or the engine and transmission coming apart to a point the starter bindex can't reach the drive ring. I'm still thinking electrical or low voltage.
What year KJ and engine Gas or Diesel. I also predict automatic transmission or is it a manual
Did the teeth on the old starter look worn or rounded more to the top or bottom? Standing on a table teeth in the air.
Can you feel the noise (vibration from the noise) not the other vibration listed above?
Does the noise start the very second you crank the key?
If you pay really close attention does the noise stop or continue AND change the very second the engine starts?
Yes It has a start relay. One is in the black plastic box just ahead of the battery. I don't have a manual though?
Many new cars use starters with Pull in and Hold in circuits. They use both and have a magnetic switch to actually reverse polarity and disengage the starter. They connect to ECU, Clutch switches, Nuetral safety switches etc,,, These are much more voltage sensitive than Planetary gear starters. I don't know if The Libby has one but I'd bet yes.
Do you think the noise is the starter as hinted by the possibility of a sticking relay?
Yes it could be the relay as mentioned. Easy to test only have to wait till it's cold. On that track though more likley faulty ignition switch.
Your old starter or flywheel drive ring will show proof of remaining engadged after engine start

DO YOU HAVE A VOLT METER?

johnny_posc · **Joined:** Sun May 30, 2010 8:43 pm **Posts:** 69

So thought it might have been the relay. And since it only does it when its cold I thought I would take the relay out and inside with me for the night. Went out the next morning, put the relay in, and still the same thing. And it was pretty bad this morning. Haven't performed any electrical tests on the battery yet. Thinkin about recording it and posting.

johnny_posc · **Joined:** Sun May 30, 2010 8:43 pm **Posts:** 69

Anyone think it could be the power steering pump. Done a little research and some other people have described the same noise in the winter.

waywardtravel · **Posted:** Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:56 pm

Just some general questions........

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