2005 6-speed Renegade, Transmission Problems

Se7enLC · **Posted:** Sat May 26, 2012 8:21 pm

I have a 2005 Liberty Renegade 6-Speed. I've got 95k on the odometer (bought it brand new). I've always had trouble getting it into reverse, but it's gotten worse over time. Now it's to a point where I cannot get it into reverse at all without getting a grinding noise. Once it's IN reverse, it works fine, and every other gear works great.

About 3k miles ago, reverse went out completely. The whole shifter felt "off" - like it was completely skewed. I was able to drive forward still, so I got it to the dealer. I had the clutch done and the entire shifter handle assembly replaced (splines had worn down to nubs!). I was again able to get into reverse - but not easily, still. Only 3k later, and it's failing again. I was told it might be the transmission, and I found a TSB that seems to think it's a common problem (it calls it out as a user error, but I feel like there shouldn't be a user error that requires a transmission rebuild!)

Has anyone experienced this? Has anyone had their manual transmission rebuilt? What should I expect in terms of cost and time for the repair? Is it worth it? I love my jeep still, but I wonder if this is a sign telling me to get something new.

Any suggestions on transmission places around the greater Boston area? I'm reluctant to go to a dealer for this. The manual transmission is so rare I'd rather have a place that sees a lot of different transmissions look at it than a place that has only seen pictures of mine in a book. Also, saving a couple thousand dollars.

ando · **Posted:** Sun May 27, 2012 6:32 am

Hi mate, only had my manual KJ for a couple months, but most 4x4's over here are manual (apart from Jeeps :lol:

) so I've had a few, and though at 83k, I dont have any problem getting reverse in the Jeep, I've noticed you do have select it quite slowly and surely ... I cant just throw it in and out of reverse like most manuals seem ok with !!

Hope you get to the bottom of your problem bud, and sorry I cant help

infernicus · **Posted:** Sun May 27, 2012 8:35 am

Hey, I have an '07 6speed, and I have had the same issue since day one, I also bout it new.
I'm at about 86k right now, and it doesn't always make it into reverse, I can usually tell right away it isn't in gear, so I usually just come up slowly on the clutch, or put it back into neutral, and put a little more pressure to put it into reverse and it works.
Every now and then if I'm not paying attention, or in a rush, I would get the grinding noise.
The only time I worry (and it happened a couple weeks ago) is when I'm forced to valet it, or in a parking garage in NYC.
I've brought it in the past to the dealer, and they said they can't replicate (BS), and they told me that it is not a known issue,even though it has been mentioned multiple times on this forum.
thankfully my reverse gear still works, because like I said, I don't let it grind.

Anyway, good luck, and hopefully everything works out smoothly.

sota · **Joined:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:44 pm **Posts:** 379

I wonder if the reverse lockout is causing you a problem.

and I wish there was a shop I could recommend taking it to.

Se7enLC · **Posted:** Tue May 29, 2012 12:58 pm

infernicus wrote:

Hey, I have an '07 6speed, and I have had the same issue since day one, I also bout it new.
I'm at about 86k right now, and it doesn't always make it into reverse, I can usually tell right away it isn't in gear, so I usually just come up slowly on the clutch, or put it back into neutral, and put a little more pressure to put it into reverse and it works.
Every now and then if I'm not paying attention, or in a rush, I would get the grinding noise.
The only time I worry (and it happened a couple weeks ago) is when I'm forced to valet it, or in a parking garage in NYC.
I've brought it in the past to the dealer, and they said they can't replicate (BS), and they told me that it is not a known issue,even though it has been mentioned multiple times on this forum.
thankfully my reverse gear still works, because like I said, I don't let it grind.

Anyway, good luck, and hopefully everything works out smoothly.

Yeah, that's my issue to a T. The gear still works perfectly fine... once it engages. But getting it to engage is nothing but hassle.

At least the dealership can definitely replicate it. When I bring it in for service, they park it up in a lot behind the dealership when it's done. When I come in to pick it up, they send somebody up the hill to drive it down to the main building for the customer. The last two times I've brought it in, the person that walks out to pick up my jeep ends up walking back and saying "I can't get your jeep into reverse, can you come get it?"

I'm basically to a point where:
A). Nobody else can drive my jeep but me. I'm Biff.
B). I can't back out of a spot with any amount of stealth. I can sometimes get it to engage in reverse without grinding, but it takes patience and luck. It's embarrassing - everyone looks at me like I suck at driving manual.
C). I can't parallel park anymore. I'm very good at parallel parking, but I don't always get exactly into the spot on the first go. Usually it involves a bit of back and forth, especially with small spots. But if I can't easily get into reverse, there's no way I can do it.
D). Forget parking on a hill! If I can't reliably get into reverse, I'm going to roll into somebody.
E). I can't sell it private-party ever. Who would buy a car that can't go in reverse?

So if this is common on here - has anyone gotten it fixed? What did it take?

(Side Note: I imagine the reason dealerships don't know about it is because the manual transmission liberty is quite rare - and the problem takes a number of miles to become serious enough to complain about. I REALLY REALLY REALLY wish I'd brought it in right away when I had the issue and it was still under warranty so that now they would cover the cost of the fix)

vincennescrd · **Posted:** Tue May 29, 2012 1:18 pm

If there is no problem in other gears I would say it's a synchronizer

Se7enLC · **Posted:** Tue May 29, 2012 2:02 pm

vincennescrd wrote:

If there is no problem in other gears I would say it's a synchronizer

That fits the symptoms. Reverse gear feels just like an old unsynchronized manual transmission grain truck I drove once.

Got any other info about it? What level of work is needed to repair/replace, cost, etc? Thanks

sota · **Joined:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:44 pm **Posts:** 379

you need to be able to take a manual trans apart.
god only knows what special tools might be required.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Tue May 29, 2012 5:39 pm

Does it go in smooth if you double clutch the shift?

M&P40 · **Posted:** Tue May 29, 2012 8:33 pm

my work car does kinda the same thing, have to put it in 1st to sync the gears then it will go into reverse without issue sucks that the stealership cant figure it out.

sota · **Joined:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:44 pm **Posts:** 379

alot of times reverse doesn't even have a synchro... since you're usually at a dead stop when entering the gear anyways a synchro would be useless. generally the reverse gear pair is cut with a wider tolerance so as to make it easier for them to engage (improved probability of the teeth meshing), which is also why reverse in general is a louder gear (that and the engagement of the reverse idler gear.) I don't have a tear down manual for the trans (hint: someone want to send me one in PDF form?) to study and give an idea as to what specifically might be locking out the gear.

you could try a technique where before you try and pull back into reverse you release your break pedal. if the vehicle moves even the slightest it could help rotate the gearset into alignment for engagement. that would indicate to me there's a problem with clearance on the gearset... possibly too tight. I wonder if the Chrysler Crossfire people have any reverse lockout problems, as they use the same transmission.

vincennescrd · **Posted:** Wed May 30, 2012 2:06 am

Newer trannys have a synchro in reverse 99.5% of the time

sota · **Joined:** Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:44 pm **Posts:** 379

never FEELS like there's one in there though. :ROTFL:

Se7enLC · **Posted:** Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:45 pm

sota wrote:

alot of times reverse doesn't even have a synchro... since you're usually at a dead stop when entering the gear anyways a synchro would be useless. generally the reverse gear pair is cut with a wider tolerance so as to make it easier for them to engage (improved probability of the teeth meshing), which is also why reverse in general is a louder gear (that and the engagement of the reverse idler gear.) I don't have a tear down manual for the trans (hint: someone want to send me one in PDF form?) to study and give an idea as to what specifically might be locking out the gear.

I won't be doing the teardown myself - well beyond the level of what I want to take on! I do want to understand what is going on, though, as best I can. Definitely true - that lack of a synchro also explains why when you are rolling backwards, you can put the transmission in 1st and let out the clutch slowly and it will slow down and start moving forwards, but if you are rolling forward and try that with reverse, you will be greeted with gnashing teeth even before you let the clutch out.

Quote:

you could try a technique where before you try and pull back into reverse you release your break pedal. if the vehicle moves even the slightest it could help rotate the gearset into alignment for engagement. that would indicate to me there's a problem with clearance on the gearset... possibly too tight. I wonder if the Chrysler Crossfire people have any reverse lockout problems, as they use the same transmission.

Exactly right. I've found that if I'm able to move the jeep I can get it into reverse more successfully. That means that if I am parked with the nose uphill, I will have a high probability of success at getting into reverse and getting out. If I'm parked nose downhill, I'm pretty much screwed.

Se7enLC · **Posted:** Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:23 pm

Update: AAMCO took the transmission apart. Apparently reverse got destroyed, and it took everything else out with it. They need to rebuild the entire gearbox. Estimated cost $4500, will take ~ 5 days.

ducktail · **Posted:** Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:28 am

Darn if that doesn't sound steep. I believe I would be looking for a junkyard.

Budke · **Posted:** Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:37 am

4500???? WTF!!!!
In my YJ I had the auto tranny fully rebuilt with high performance clutches and a shift kit and it cost me $900, I also pulled it and put it back in myself. The guy said if he did that it would have cost about 2k.
Seems to me like AAMCO is ripping you off.

Sent using the force

kskj · **Posted:** Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:29 pm

Does seem a bit steep. On my 5 speed I found a used one with 17,000 miles on it. With shipping it was close to a grand and to get it put in with a new clutch was another grand. I thought that was expensive.

Just checked car-part .com they have one with 24,000 miles for 750.00

Se7enLC · **Posted:** Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:47 pm

Budke wrote:

4500???? WTF!!!!
In my YJ I had the auto tranny fully rebuilt with high performance clutches and a shift kit and it cost me $900, I also pulled it and put it back in myself. The guy said if he did that it would have cost about 2k.
Seems to me like AAMCO is ripping you off.

What they told me was that the reverse gear got destroyed, and pieces of that gear went everywhere. I would not be surprised if this caused a LOT of other parts to end up needing replacing that would not normally need to be replaced. Every transmission is different, so the information about your automatic YJ doesn't really say whether this is a good deal or not. There are SO few 6 speed manual jeep liberties in existence, I have not found anyone that has done a transmission rebuild, so I have exactly zero comparison prices. I did read a posting from somebody that had the same reverse problem I have and swapped for a used transmission - one that had "the same problem but not as bad". Replacing a transmission is of course nowhere near as expensive as rebuilding.

I was expecting more like $1000-3000, but the 6 speed manual in the liberty is a rare bird. There's a 0% chance of finding a used one - and even if it were possible, there's a good chance that it would have the same problem, since it's a very common problem. So this is using new parts for the entire gearbox.

I considered having the dealership do it, but my thoughts were:
A). The dealership I go to has only seen one 6 speed liberty - mine. They wouldn't know anything about that transmission - they've never seen one before. They would be blindly taking parts out and putting in new ones.
B). A transmission shop would be looking at it as a transmission, not as a jeep liberty. They've seen many transmissions, and will be able to get it back together. It will probably be better than new, since I've had the problem getting into reverse since mile 0.

Se7enLC · **Posted:** Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:53 pm

kskj wrote:

Does seem a bit steep. On my 5 speed I found a used one with 17,000 miles on it. With shipping it was close to a grand and to get it put in with a new clutch was another grand. I thought that was expensive.

Just checked car-part .com they have one with 24,000 miles for 750.00

Replacing a transmission != rebuilding a transmission, so the prices don't compare at all. Replacing it with a used one would be much cheaper than a rebuild, but then I would be purchasing somebody else's problems, potentially. Given how common this reverse gear issue is, I would be negative happy if that 24,000 mile transmission acted like mine did at 24,000.

I suspect other transmission shops are similar:

"If your transmission does require repair, AAMCO will rebuild your transmission right - not install a cheap junkyard unit. We will back it with the strongest nationwide warranty in the business - from our basic no-questions-asked nationwide warranty to our available iron-clad lifetime warranty! For more information on our transmission services, visit any of the links below:"

EDIT TO ADD: I am *STILL* hitting myself for not complaining to the dealership sooner. I should have gone in for Every Single Little Thing when it was under warranty. If I'd been more insistent about this problem back when I was under the transmission warranty, jeep would be footing this bill instead of me. But I never OFFICIALLY went in and asked anyone to fix it. I offhandedly complained about how difficult it was to get into reverse, and had gone in a few times for related issues after the warranty had already expired. Neither I nor anyone at the dealership had ever seen another manual transmission liberty, so I had no way of knowing that it wasn't normal. I thought it was a quirk of the vehicle, not a failing transmission. Lesson learned, and let it be a lesson to everyone else. If you have a warranty, nitpick nitpick nitpick, and keep records!

2005 6-speed Renegade, Transmission Problems

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