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Handling in 2WD mode
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=72951		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Maccie [ Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Handling in 2WD mode
Hi,

Three days ago, I had a very scary experience with my KJ. The car is a Euro-spec stock '02 2.5 CRD manual with the 2HI/4HI/N/2LO transfer case. I drive on all-year standard tires which are winter rated (but not dedicated winter tires) and in decent shape.

Since we are enjoying a pretty snowy winter where I live, I mostly drive in 4HI mode. However, since I understand that you should avoid 4HI/4LO mode on dry surfaces to spare the transmission (remember, no "Full time" on this car), i have occasionally shifted to 2HI when road conditions have been OK.

So the other day, I was driving home on the highway in the late evening and since the road was dry near downtown, I was in 2HI. However, nearer my home, it had just started to snow and there was a fresh layer on the road. Doing 55 mph on the straight and almost empty highway, it didn't seem alarming.

But suddenly, in a slight leftwards curve, the car lost all traction on the rear wheels and the behind of my Jeep started to drift to the right. I immediately tried to counter this with clutch and wheel but to no avail. The car swung again to the left, now almost a full 180 and I found myself skidding helplessly ass-first towards the mid-road barrier. All I could do was to brace and brake slightly and I managed to get down to maybe 20 before I hit the barrier ass-first. Luckily, all traffic managed to brake before they ran into me. Needless to say, had there not been a mid-road barrier, I would have ended up in front of oncoming traffic.

My takeaway from this is that the KJ, driven in 2HI mode, is dangerous in slippery conditions. None of my other cars before have ever felt this unstable and prone to drifting/spinning. A reasonably modern car shouldn't just spin around like this going almost straight forward in 55, fresh snow or not (and no, the car show no signs of mechanical problems that could have contributed). Note: in 4HI/4LO mode, the handling is excellent in snow.

Does anyone have comments or experiences of their own reading about my little adventure?
Author:  kirksjeep [ Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
In 2hi the liberty is just a rear wheel drive vehicle, and they are prone to spin. In a curve the front wheels act like pivot points and the rear wheels are still providing a forward force, which in slippery conditions equals a spin. I just use 4hi when it is slick out. The concern with using hi too much isn't the transmission, it is the transfer case and stretching the chain. The NP231 transfer case that you have is pretty stout and in the event the chain does stretch they are easy to work on and a heavy duty replacement chain isn't very expensive, under $100 if I remember correctly. My :2cents: just use 4 hi and don't sweat it.
Author:  tommudd [ Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
Better tires
watching for ice and slippery areas
I hardly ever use 4 wheel drive except off road
No use to if you have good tires
Author:  Maccie [ Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Handling in 2WD mode
Sure, I know that in 2HI it is just a rear wheel drive car (obviously!).

What I meant was that even for RWD, it felt very unstable. I have driven other RWDs and I wouldn't have expected this.

But thanks for the technical advice.
Author:  thehypnotoad [ Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
Living in Canada I drive in some of the worst winter conditions, and I hardly use 4WD on road unless I'm dealing with deep snow or completely ice covered highways. That being said, I have a 2006 with the ESP (traction/stability program) and it is VERY good at detecting wheel spin on slick roads and correcting accordingly. I also have Goodyear Duratrac A/T's which are snowflake rated.

When you were in the curve and felt the backend coming out, did you hit the brakes? I find quite often that is a mistake people make at high speeds when they realize they are slipping...does your Jeep have ABS? Maybe you locked up your tires.

I actually did the very same thing but it my Mom's Toyota Camry. I was going about 80km/h on a slick road (FWD, crappy tires) and I hit the brakes because a deer came onto the road. I forgot the vehicle didn't have ABS, and I quickly turned sideways, tried to correct, and ended up doing a 180.
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
Need better tires.What happened to you I do for fun,granted I don't allow the rear end to pass the front end,If I time it right there is a section of road to work I can keep it sideways for almost a 1/2 mile.

I never engage 4wd unless offroad.I've never used 4hi in my Jeep,only ever use 4low.
Author:  5characters [ Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
Believe it or not today was the 1st time we had the T (we named it today T-38 funny story) in the the snow, drove all day in the Focus, and switched this evening and spun in the driveway.
Author:  Maccie [ Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:11 am ]
Post subject:  Handling in 2WD mode
Thank you all for your comments.

No, I did not hit the brakes, when the car started to drift, I took my foot off the accelerator and I *think* I hit the clutch (which is what you should do when a manual car starts drifting) but I know I did not brake.

The problem with my KJ is of course that it is a '02 without ESP which makes it dangerous in slippery conditions in 2HI mode.

The KJ is my hunting car, normally I drive a '11 Volvo XC70 alltime AWD with every modern electronic system including ESP and dedicated winter tires. That car is rock solid on any flat surface (and has almost the ground clearance and terrain capability of the KJ) so I guess I was just surprised by the old KJs handling. I need to take it for what it is.
Author:  tommudd [ Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
There is your problem.
You are used to driving a vehicle that you don't drive it drives for you.
I hope I never have to own one with all that crap on that controls braking etc
Author:  4x4kingx889 [ Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
I have a 05 with only ABS no ESP I how ever do have full time 4x4 but I don't use it I also have no problem getting around in 2wd the only time I use 4wd on the road's is when there's alot of car's around me and it is really bad out
Author:  Jeepjeepster [ Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
So you were doing 55, in the snow, and spun out in a curve with all season tires? I'm not seeing a problem here.

If you're use to relying on esp to drive your vehicle, you better stick to driving cars with esp.
Author:  4x4kingx889 [ Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
One thing I don't like about newer car's is they basically drive them self's and to think google maid a 100% self driving car pretty scary if you ask me...
Author:  kingjeep [ Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
changing tires can help a lot what do you ride on now.
Author:  5characters [ Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
Anybody ever put sand in the cargo area?
Author:  tommudd [ Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
Used to do that back in the 70s in my pickups, but not anymore.
Of course with the KIlby gas tank skid, steel bumper, 5 gallon of gas, CO2 tank, recovery gear, 50 lbs worth of tools or so, guess I have some extra weight back there :ROTFL:
Author:  5characters [ Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
Well we added 140lbs to the rear today, and so far no spins, cept on the ice by the barn....
Author:  Tiarnon [ Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
Short wheel base + Too fast + Curve = Problems.

My 06 has ABS and ESP luckily, and even in 2HI it feels slightly "squirrely" (Is that how you say that?) at speeds over 50 on icy highway. So the big storm this last week (Eastern Iowa, blizzard conditions) was a good test. Were you using your cruise control? I never use the cruise unless pavement is clear of ice.

My 94 F150 had more comfort on the ice then the Liberty, but I attribute that to the longer wheelbase giving more stability. Just have to be careful!
Author:  xhizzous [ Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
Fridays storm was the first time I have been able to play with my libby in the snow and ice. 2 Hi was fine except for accelerating on some of the hills that were completely covered on the back roads near my house. Went and played in a parking lot as well and the ESP makes a huge difference. I couldn't even get it to go sideways despite my best efforts with it on.

When I turned it off :wink: that's another story. Its good to know the limits of the abilities of the vehicle.

Id get a set of nice aggressive and sticky tires and you should be fine if you're careful.

(Short wheel base + Too fast + Curve = Problems)

is the formula for the problem though.
Author:  Maccie [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:11 am ]
Post subject:  Handling in 2WD mode
Yes, I agree that it of course comes to being careful in snowy conditions.

But bear in mind that the "curve" I described was the kind of very gentle curve that you have on a highway designed for cars doing upwards of 70 or more, not some sharp corner.

I was just following the traffic rythm together with all other cars doing around 55 and suddenly my KJ was the only car out of dozens spinning around after no provocation at all. Steady speed, no cruise, no sharp turns or lane change. I must have had some really bad luck, I guess.
Author:  5characters [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handling in 2WD mode
Maccie wrote:
Yes, I agree that it of course comes to being careful in snowy conditions.

But bear in mind that the "curve" I described was the kind of very gentle curve that you have on a highway designed for cars doing upwards of 70 or more, not some sharp corner.

I was just following the traffic rythm together with all other cars doing around 55 and suddenly my KJ was the only car out of dozens spinning around after no provocation at all. Steady speed, no cruise, no sharp turns or lane change. I must have had some really bad luck, I guess.



poop happens man.
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