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Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed...
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Author:  kj-dec [ Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed...
2002 KJ Limited, 65K miles, nearly all city/highway. It has not been abused, and has has relatively decent maintenance since new.

About 16 months ago the exhaust shop found the rear axle seal on the left side was leaking (and then the pinion seal, though much less). I could see the leakage, they were not pulling one over.

$800 later at a different shop with a decent rep, I had the axle rebuilt/resealed, seals and outer bearings replaced, with a 1 year service warranty; that has expired.

Yesterday in the -19 degree weather the front left brake hose blew. Normally brakes and hoses are not a problem but I have to work in the driveway and just don't have time on weekdays to do the work, especially in this weather (and having a car is mandatory) so I took it to a local brake shop that has an OK rep, but mainly was close enough and open late so I could drive there using the parking brake without much traffic.

They want $380 to replace both front hoses (I wanted the right replaced too as long as they were in there) and bleed out the system. That seems excessive, so if someone has a labor guide available I'd appreciate knowing how much it should cost (or at least labor times) at a reasonable shop. But this is an urgency so I'm stuck with it for now.

While they were in there they found:

Front axle pinion seal is leaking.
Steering rack is leaking (this is a very slow leak, but I wasn't sure where it was coming from; one bottle of fluid keeps it topped off for 6 months or so).
Rear axle is (and I quote) pouring oil into the brake drums. I saw no sign of that in October, when I gave the Jeep a once-over in prep for a long highway trip. And they say the rear axle pinion seal is leaking (again).

Since the axle seals are leaking again, I expect that just replacing them again is unlikely to be a viable repair. I've never worked on this axle before (only Chrysler 8-3/4" units) so I'm not sure if there are options (like microsleeves for a new seal surface, etc).

None of the additional items are being done now. I want to confirm them myself, and to be honest now that I don't have to find the closest open place, I want to shop for a better deal and reputation on any service.

I can't do heavy work; both location, tool availability, space, and my condition prevent. I can't drop axles in the driveway due to HOA regs. The Jeep has to stay on its wheels overnight. Daytime work is ok but at night it needs to appear 'normal' or the HOA goes on a penalty spree. Brakes and the like, no problem. I changed the radiator and sepentine belt/tensioner last year. But pinion seals, no way. Steering rack.... don't know. Certainly not till it gets warmer.

This is all going to add up, especially the parts I can't do. and it is 12 years old. Its not very high mileage but has been used a lot and has the usual midwest rust starting (front door lower corners). Its well equipped but interior (especially driver seat) has quite a bit of wear. I have to balance its worth against the cost of repairs.

I like it, and enjoy driving it, but its one of those 2002s that nothing could be done to get over 12MPG city/20 highway (and now with winter crap gas its more like 10/15). We replaced its predecessor (a 1990 Dodge W250 Club Cab) at 12 years/70K miles due to sharply increasing maintenance and repair costs, and impending rust.

So input on repair costs or times, or options (like getting the rear axle replaced versus repaired), etc would be appreciated. Its time to decide if its time to look for the next vehicle or keep fixing this one.

Thanks!
Author:  tommudd [ Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
65,000 miles is super low mileage , heck I'm over 195,000 on an 04 and have no plans to replace until 300,000.
It seems the biggest issue you have is the inability to do work yourself on some things and trusting others to tell you what needs done.
I would have someone you trust go over everything and give an honest estimate of what needs done
You have to think what repairing yours is to what a payment on a new vehicle would be
For me I'd LOVE to have a low mileage 02 like yours sitting in my driveway
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
The low mileage is why problems are getting expensive.Little to no use is worse then lacking in maintenance as it's harder on seals and generally everything else.Figure what new car payments(and higher insurance) would cost per month/per year and if repairing what you have is cheaper fix it,if not sell it and buy new.

I also have a '02 with only 94k on it but nothing is stock and my maintenance is pretty strict and I just picked up '03 Town Car with 58k on it and to prevent those nickel and dime repairs I have replaced the serp belt,tensioner,plugs,air filter,battery,tires,brakes,all lights,all fluids,all tie rod ends,all ball joints,and the shocks in the 1st week.Looked real close at all the seals and will be replacing most in the summer then I'll be set with a low mileage vehicle that will be trouble free for years.
Author:  tommudd [ Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
If you want to sell it.................
Author:  kj-dec [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
tommudd wrote:
65,000 miles is super low mileage , heck I'm over 195,000 on an 04 and have no plans to replace until 300,000.
It seems the biggest issue you have is the inability to do work yourself on some things and trusting others to tell you what needs done.
I would have someone you trust go over everything and give an honest estimate of what needs done
You have to think what repairing yours is to what a payment on a new vehicle would be
For me I'd LOVE to have a low mileage 02 like yours sitting in my driveway


Tommudd, thanks. I know its low mileage; half its life I've had a 1.5 mile work commute and perhaps 30 miles on weekends.

Maintenance has been fairly regular. I haven't been able to be a stickler about it but still pretty good. But I have a sloped driveway, and no garage space, so I can't put the Jeep up on stands, just jack up one end or the other. Doing work under the middle of the Jeep is almost impossible.

The Jeep has had new rear shocks, new brakes all around (third set on the front and I wish I had changed the hoses that last time). Oil and filters changed regularly. Transmission and transfer case fluid (and trannie filter) were changed at ~30K and ~60K miles by a shop. Front and rear axle lube were changed around 50K miles, and the rear again when it was rebuilt around 56K. The CV joints have been checked and greased, boots are still OE and in good shape. Ball joints changed twice as recalls. Still has OE steering parts.

I am going to get a second opinion. I don't have a trusted place since the local Merlin franchise was shut down (this specific location had a couple of great guys recommended by our local car and hot rod clubs, and they did fine work) but hopefully they've got some new recommendations.

If anyone here has recommendation for a good shop or mechanic in the NW chicago burbs I'd appreciate it.
Author:  dgeist [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
If you haven't changed the brake fluid out, that may be a big cause of some of your issues. Brake fluid taking on water is irritating and makes brakes fade, but it also gets water in really bad places with the weather most of the US has been having. That could burst hoses and force fluid out through seals that are otherwise fine (ice is a very strong motivator...). The hose change is straightforward and shouldn't cost that much and just requires a decent few wrenches, just remember the connections are soft metal and over-torquing is really easy. Make sure you do NOT open the brake fluid fill cap with the hoses off. You'll likely loose too much of the fluid. As long as the tank doesn't go completely dry, bleeding is straightforward.

After the hoses are swapped, use the turkey baster method to suck out most of the old fluid and replace with a high-quality dot3/4 synthetic. Then bleed with your favorite method and top off with fresh fluid as you're doing it. If you can swing it, a pressure/self bleeder makes it REALLY easy: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000TYJEXG/ref=oh_details_o09_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Agreed that most of your problems aren't uncommon for a vehicle of that age. Rubber, seals, and fluids don't last forever regardless of mileage or maintenance. I don't know that the mileage is as much of an issue as long as you at least bring things up to temp and run it regularly, even if not going very far. Daily driving takes care of "keeping things lubed".

Dan
Author:  kj-dec [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
Somewhere around 35K, I was getting the second set of pads replaced (the rotors were not in good shape but I could not get them off the Jeep, so just put new pads in as a temporary expedient; that replacement set didn't last long) the shop I paid to do the work was supposed to do a flush and refill of the brake fluid. I got charged for it, the fluid in the master cylinder looked clearer/cleaner but who knows if they did it properly.

Ticks me off because this is all stuff I used to do myself on the Challenger, the Dart, and to an extent even the truck (though by then I was already in sloped driveway no garage hell). Of course the brake rotors came off the truck easily, so everything else pretty much went easily too. The Jeep rotors felt like they were welded on and I hadn't found the various sneaky/ingenius ways of getting them off then. I hate spending money (especially too much) on stuff I could do if only conditions were a little more amenable.
Author:  kj-dec [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
Well, the poll is running heavily towards spending the money; I should have expected that from this site though 8)

While the Liberty was in the shop I had a Compass rental. It was not a pleasant experience. Definitely not an option for replacement. And I don't think I could afford a (brand new) more capable Jeep.

So it'll be a few weeks but I'll get it to the recommended shop for a once-over and some quotes. Maybe take a look at if there's anything I can do at home (but probably not till spring).

Thanks for the opinions, and still looking for shop recommendations in this area (NW chicago suburbs)
Author:  KJScott [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
since Clearing out garage and getting your jeep inside to do repairs yourself because HOA's suck, wasn't a choice, I will just state it here. If you still enjoy the KJ, it is paid for, fix the critical things first. Anything with brakes, or things affecting brakes should be done first. That means the rear axle seal needs to be fixed too.
Author:  kj-dec [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
OK. I agree that the rear axle is the highest priority due to the brakes and the fact that its a pain to stay on top of checking lube levels and keeping it full; I don't know how much fluid I'm losing but the brake shop said it didn't need lube (so either the axle shop overfilled it or its just not leaking that badly, yet).

Is a rear axle something that can be bought from a rebuilder, or reconditioned from a store or other vendor? Would a wrecking yard unit be worth considering assuming I can confirm the vehicle its came in wasn't abused (and its obviously not leaking)? This one already cost me $800 for a little over 1 year's service; unless I can easily tell if the failure was due to the shop's failure, or if there really is something wrong with the axle (or one or both of the actual axle shafts) that caused the quick failure (which I hope the shop would have caught) it might be an open-end expense getting it repaired...

If I can pick up a recon or used axle I do have a line on a shop that can _probably_ do the install and alignment; same place that the local car club has had good luck with and is willing to use customer supplied parts.
Author:  KJScott [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
Tommud is it possible when he had his differential rebuilt they used cheap axle seals that can't handle the cold?
Author:  kj-dec [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
KJScott wrote:
Tommud is it possible when he had his differential rebuilt they used cheap axle seals that can't handle the cold?


Or does the seal lip ride on a wear surface and they didn't polish it or put a repair sleeve or whatever (not familiar with this axle's guts)
Author:  TwoBobsKJ [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
kj-dec wrote:
OK. I agree that the rear axle is the highest priority due to the brakes and the fact that its a pain to stay on top of checking lube levels and keeping it full; I don't know how much fluid I'm losing but the brake shop said it didn't need lube (so either the axle shop overfilled it or its just not leaking that badly, yet).

Is a rear axle something that can be bought from a rebuilder, or reconditioned from a store or other vendor? Would a wrecking yard unit be worth considering assuming I can confirm the vehicle its came in wasn't abused (and its obviously not leaking)? This one already cost me $800 for a little over 1 year's service; unless I can easily tell if the failure was due to the shop's failure, or if there really is something wrong with the axle (or one or both of the actual axle shafts) that caused the quick failure (which I hope the shop would have caught) it might be an open-end expense getting it repaired...

If I can pick up a recon or used axle I do have a line on a shop that can _probably_ do the install and alignment; same place that the local car club has had good luck with and is willing to use customer supplied parts.


TomMudd and I swapped out my rear axle for one from the same year KJ but from a 4 cylinder (it has 4.10 gears which I wanted.) I would say all told it took us about 3 hours to put the new one in. Now Tom had spent some time cleaning up the new/replacement axle so it was just a case of pulling the old one, swapping the yoke from the old one to the new, and then putting the new one in.

So yes, a replacement axle from a low-mileage used KJ is certainly an option.

Bob
Author:  kj-dec [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
I'm posting the additional service quotes I got from Firestone. I didn't realize they had given them to me until I filed the receipts for the brake hose work. I'd appreciate opinions on their resemblance to reality because they sure added up to a ton... and I'm not planning on going back to that place.

Rear axle limited slip differential service, $58 parts (fluids), $50 labor (drain, clean, refill)

Rear axle seal replacement, both, plus new outer axle bearings: $122 Parts, $273 labor, includes rear brake cleanup and adjust (but not fluid service, above, or shoe replacement if needed)

Steering rack replacement, reman rack $443.99 parts, $660 labor, does not include alignment

Alignment, $90 labor

It looks like their price on the rack itself is about double what Rock Auto wants.

After reading the shop manual and watching some videos I think I can do the rear axle seals and bearings come spring. I wish this was a Mopar 8-3/4 axle though... c-clips suck. Pinion seals, no way. I found a reference online to replacing the rack without pulling the front axle but its still very involved so I'm not sure thats doable in the driveway.
Author:  tommudd [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
You can do the rack in your driveway, Troy, (tjkj ) did one at MOAB if I remember right a few years back in a campground.

All can be done except for the alignment
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
kj-dec wrote:
I'm posting the additional service quotes I got from Firestone. I didn't realize they had given them to me until I filed the receipts for the brake hose work. I'd appreciate opinions on their resemblance to reality because they sure added up to a ton... and I'm not planning on going back to that place.

Rear axle limited slip differential service, $58 parts (fluids), $50 labor (drain, clean, refill)

Rear axle seal replacement, both, plus new outer axle bearings: $122 Parts, $273 labor, includes rear brake cleanup and adjust (but not fluid service, above, or shoe replacement if needed)

Steering rack replacement, reman rack $443.99 parts, $660 labor, does not include alignment

Alignment, $90 labor

It looks like their price on the rack itself is about double what Rock Auto wants.

After reading the shop manual and watching some videos I think I can do the rear axle seals and bearings come spring. I wish this was a Mopar 8-3/4 axle though... c-clips suck. Pinion seals, no way. I found a reference online to replacing the rack without pulling the front axle but its still very involved so I'm not sure thats doable in the driveway.

Every shop out there the parts will always be higher then what you can buy them for yourself.They mark up the prices to make money,why there doors are open.

I'd rather deal with C-clipped axles any day as far as replacing axle seals and bearings,no pressing required but special puller required for the axle bearings.

The labor time for the rack replacement is 5.5 hours,so yeah and time consuming job and yep I replaced a rack on a KJ in MOAB a few years back in a campground lot,took about 4 hours.
Author:  kj-dec [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
tjkj2002 wrote:
The labor time for the rack replacement is 5.5 hours,so yeah and time consuming job and yep I replaced a rack on a KJ in MOAB a few years back in a campground lot,took about 4 hours.



Did you do the 'remove the front axle' method from the FSM, or the alternate way that avoids having to do that? I really don't want to drop the front axle...
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
kj-dec wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
The labor time for the rack replacement is 5.5 hours,so yeah and time consuming job and yep I replaced a rack on a KJ in MOAB a few years back in a campground lot,took about 4 hours.



Did you do the 'remove the front axle' method from the FSM, or the alternate way that avoids having to do that? I really don't want to drop the front axle...

Never touched the front diff or either front CV axles.
Author:  kj-dec [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
yellocoyote wrote:
To the OP - where in IL are you?

The hubby replaced the steering rack in my KJ in a couple of hours in our driveway. Most times, if he's asked for help on something, he won't turn you away. Same for seals. If you need a hand... :2cents:


Jayme,
Palatine, and I really appreciate the thought. I think the rear axle seals and bearings won't be a problem (other than cleanup) but I might like to talk with him about the rack replacement; find out how he did it so fast and maybe get some pointers or instructions.

But nothings happening until spring! And not until I get confirmation that its the rack that is leaking, and not the hoses or pump.

Thanks!

Rich
Author:  kj-dec [ Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nickel and diming turning to real money; how to proceed.
New question. I took a look at the Timken 'repair' set rear axle bearings. They got good reps on Amazon and some good comments elsewhere. These are single units that incorporate the bearing and axle seal in one piece, and move the contact areas for the bearing rollers and seal lip on the axle to get around existing wear.

I won't know what the axles look like till I pull them. I'd rather not have to run out and get these when the Jeep is apart in the driveway so I'm thinking of getting them as the part to use regardless of how the axles look.

They come pre-lubed with blue grease, and have a seal on the inside of the bearing in addition to the main seal on the outside.

I'd appreciate hearing of anyone who has used these or similar from another brand.

Also, would the included grease be adequate ?

Thanks

Rich
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