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Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78415		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  William Waddy [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
I've been working my way through my 05 CRD, beefing up the weak links. I've got the steel front diff, Atlas TC, JE Reel CV's, sitting on 33" Cepek Crusher tires. The next weak link seems to be the steering tie rods. I'm using the MOOG rods, but am bending and/or breaking them on a regular basis as I rock crawl in the local slickrock (similar to Moab).
I've noticed that several companies make after market heim-joint-based steering tie rods for IFS applications other than the Liberty. Does anyone sell a kit for KJ's?
A guy at EMF Rod Ends in Canada is working with me and he thinks he can put together the right combination of parts to do this. I'll post how it works out. I'm also interested to know if anyone has already done this, or is experiencing the same problem.
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
William Waddy wrote:
I've been working my way through my 05 CRD, beefing up the weak links. I've got the steel front diff, Atlas TC, JE Reel CV's, sitting on 33" Cepek Crusher tires. The next weak link seems to be the steering tie rods. I'm using the MOOG rods, but am bending and/or breaking them on a regular basis as I rock crawl in the local slickrock (similar to Moab).
I've noticed that several companies make after market heim-joint-based steering tie rods for IFS applications other than the Liberty. Does anyone sell a kit for KJ's?
A guy at EMF Rod Ends in Canada is working with me and he thinks he can put together the right combination of parts to do this. I'll post how it works out. I'm also interested to know if anyone has already done this, or is experiencing the same problem.

I did this,took care of all the weak links at once.

Image
Author:  William Waddy [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
You're killing me :grim:

I often wonder what it would be like if I had spent all that money on a SFA, but it seems I'm "in for a penny in for a pound," and still trying to make something out of the IFS.

I love what you did with your Liberty.
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
Thanks.

Though I'd skip heim joints for tie rod ends if you daily drive and do any long distance driving at highway speeds.They are great for a short while but they wear pretty fast and get sloppy.Plus on the knuckle side you'd be mounting them in single shear which is not a good idea for such a high stress load area.
Author:  The_dealer [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
Look up ffr fabrications. I have used them in the past on other rigs, and they put out some quality stuff. They can make kj kits upon request for around $300.

I designed a ttb kit for a local guy for lifted fords, and in return he is working with me on making a one-off kit for my kj. Steering is one thing I wouldn't skimp on.

I'm going to agree and disagree with you tjkj2002. Solely on the point that it's all in how they are maintained, and the quality of the ends. I've run multiple heim steering setups with zero problems, and logged 30k+ on all of them(the rig got sold or the parts removed). The most mileage I've logged was on my 2011 Silverado. The kit was made by BTF, and used fk ptfe(teflon) ends. I put over 50k miles of offroad and highway mileage on them before showing any signs of wear.

Just like anything in the offroad world, a good setup is going to be made or broken by the quality of ends used. I always like to use FK teflon ends. This is not something you want to cheap out on. The biggest thing I see guys doing, is using a "wet" lube. The ends are also never lubed until guys start hearing them banging and making noise. Guys will use an aerosol lube (wd40, silicon, etc.) and it goes downhill from there. A dry lube like graphite powder will keep things lubed, but not attract dirt and trash. As with any type of joint, you have to do regular maintenance. If you start lubing them with graphite powder on a monthly schedule right after you put them on, they will stay tight an noise free. The open design makes things worse, especially when subjected to mud and water. I would take throttle body cleaner, and thoroughly clean my heims about every 3 months, then after they were dry I would throw some graphite powder on them. Even the cheapest heim will outlast a standard tre if taken car of properly.



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Author:  tjkj2002 [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
The_dealer wrote:
. Even the cheapest heim will outlast a standard tre if taken car of properly.

I'll have to disagree on that one.I've seen stock TRE's last well over 250,000 miles.
Author:  tommudd [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
yep my stock ones on my KJ are still good after 196,000. Well replaced right side outer a couple of years back , but other wise still good
Author:  The_dealer [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
Toyotas dont count!! But, I agree with you on that. I've also seen them last that long, but they were also greasable and properly maintained.

Back to the topic, a quality heim isn't much more then a cheap one. The $10-20 extra a piece will be well worth it(same goes for flex joints). Don't be afraid to run them because guys fail to mention they never did any maintenance to theirs, but yet witch about it later. I say go for it, but the weak link will then become your r&p
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
The_dealer wrote:
Toyotas dont count!! But, I agree with you on that. I've also seen them last that long, but they were also greasable and properly maintained.

Back to the topic, a quality heim isn't much more then a cheap one. The $10-20 extra a piece will be well worth it(same goes for flex joints). Don't be afraid to run them because guys fail to mention they never did any maintenance to theirs, but yet witch about it later. I say go for it, but the weak link will then become your r&p

Talking about Ford F250,my late fathers.Could have gone father but he wanted them changed every 250k even if they were good or not.

Problem is 98% will never maintain them and why we are stuck with sealed joints from the factory now(and about the past 15 years).
Author:  scout [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
Wow I have never heard of Moog tie rods or tie rod ends failing. Do you have any pictures of where they failed? I have Moogs on mine and have not had a problem with them. May be I'm not wheeling hard enough lol.
Author:  The_dealer [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
Not necessarily failed as far as breaking, but accelerated wear. On my Silverado with uni ball uppers and king c/o's I went through 2 pairs of tre's in 20k miles. One stock pair, one moog. I put the mid travel kit on with 400 miles on it. At around 25k I switched to heim steering and they were still noise free and tight when I sold it with 78k. Speaking of moog, their quality has really gone downhill in the past few years. These kj's are the only jeeps where the moog is actually an upgrade. On the tj's, moog is down there with duralast and other parts house brands.

Tjkj2002, that's wild. I've always been a Ford and a jeep guy, and most fords sealed joints start making noise around 80k. How did they look when he removed them?

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Author:  tjkj2002 [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
The_dealer wrote:
Tjkj2002, that's wild. I've always been a Ford and a jeep guy, and most fords sealed joints start making noise around 80k. How did they look when he removed them?

They were greaseable OEM TRE's,no play at all but he told me to change them anyways.Did that 2 times over the course of 750,000 miles on the truck before he passed.Greased every oil change(5k) with the cheapest grease found on earth.
Author:  The_dealer [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
After years of Ford's I learned a trick to the sealed for life parts. I would loosen the nut a little and give the knuckle a good tap with a hammer (tre and bj's). That frees up enough room to get a grease needle between the stud and boot. I'd fill it and squeeze the grease back out a few times, then fill it again before putting everything back together. Way better solution then sticking a grease needle through the boot. Helped make them last a little longer.

Back on topic, I've never had good luck with tre's and lower bj's on a lifted ifs rig. The tre just seems to be the limiting factor, which I believe is mostly due to the inner limited range of travel.

So after work today, the local guy I mentioned came over and we came up with a design. He is going to machine a sleeve which can be pressed into the knuckle. I'm only having to supply the heims, since we trade work and help each other our. The total all of the parts cost would be less than $150-$200. The majority is the teflon fk jmx heims. I'm undecided on a ball and socket inner or the normal clevis. Once I figure that out we can make more progress

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Author:  William Waddy [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
Keep us posted on how that goes. I'm interested. By the way, Durango outer tie rods have the same taper, but use an 18mm rod instead of the KJ's 16mm rod. However, the inners are too long (even though they will fit up to the pinion). I have not figured out how to shorten the rod and add needed threads because the rod necks down just slightly. They might be another option to a heim joint setup.
Author:  The_dealer [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
A machine shop shouldn't charge too much to shorten it and machine threads. He showed me one of the ball and socket inners, and they look pretty sweet. We are trying to determine if they offer the correct one

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Author:  dac44444 [ Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
Any more information on this topic?
Author:  The_dealer [ Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
I got a link to some heim steering parts that ill post up when I get to my computer. The hardest parts to figure out is the clevis that attaches to the steering rack, but I found a computer that makes them

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Author:  William Waddy [ Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
I ended up solving the problem with limit straps. Turns out the front was dropping far enough that it was pushing the steering rods past their maximum deflection point. When stress was added they would pretzel. The limit straps keep the steering rods within their normal range of deflection and no more problem.
Author:  The_dealer [ Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
Just remembered this thread, anyways for search purposes here's the heim steering clevis.
http://bbmoffroad.com/products/bms-steering-clevis
You could use these and drill the knuckle to run a standard jeep taper outer
http://bbmoffroad.com/collections/steer ... jeep-taper
Or 1 ton chevy
http://bbmoffroad.com/collections/steer ... -ton-taper

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Author:  dac44444 [ Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steering Tie Rods / Heim Joint Option?
Do you have any pics of your steering setup? bbm offroad have no products?
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