VGT turbo questions and issues

mustang_gt_350 · **Joined:** Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:47 am **Posts:** 191

I have been having a problem when under load a while ago with limp mode. Only with 2 or more people in the jeep going up a certain hill, or with my car trailer behind it. So i pulled the codes a while ago and lost the paper i wrote them on. And i tried again today and my laptop isn't cooperating when i tried to pull them today. Anyway, from a dead stop when i go WOT it doesn't feel like it really spools hard until 2300, like its laking all the low end spool it did have before, and when i'm driving and let out of the throttle i no longer her that subtle "whoosh" from the charger. I just actually noticed that lack of noise about last week when i got to thinking about what could be going on.

I have a question. I started the jeep, and pulled the vacuum line off the passenger side fender control module that runs the actuator on the turbo. It is pulling it up when its hooked up, and i played with it probably 100 times or more watching it as i hooked up and unhooked repeatedly to watch the arm move.

So my question is how far does the actuator actually move? (or should move)

I have been loosing some coolant over the last 8 months or a tad longer, nothing huge i think i have topped off the bottle about 3-4 times in that time period. I'm wondering if its not a leaking EGR problem, and its causing the vanes to stick. I also have a GP problem and have new steel ones sitting on the counter ready to go in, as i have a miss for a few seconds after startup, I'm wondering if its the bad GP cylinder, or if its a water issue.

I have been waiting for warmer weather and the time to take it under the knife, I'm thinking this wed/thur will be a good time for me to be able to tear into it and do the GP's and check out the EGR, Turbo, and look for coolant leaks else where.

I also found my codes from when i pulled them in jan.

p0234
p0299
p1261
p0102 (maf is unplugged)

maxf15 · **Joined:** Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:30 pm **Posts:** 52

Wow, I actually had to scroll up to make sure I didn't write your post!

I have an '05 with exactly the same issues. I had the timing belt replaced about 5k miles ago, but was losing a slight bit of coolant even before the TB work. So I don't think it's a poorly installed water pump or radiator hose. (I've inspected the old ones.) But I seemingly have less and less power these days (especially loaded with passengers or a trailer) until upwards of 2300 RPM, and a decent amount of black smoke.

All my reading points towards either a turbo issue (vacuum, or just a caput turbo) or EGT (which is unlikely given the unplugged MAF sensor (offroad mod).

I checked the vac lines with a mighty vac, and all seemed to hold a vacuum ok. But I haven't done the VGT idle test at the turbo yet. That's tomorrow or Saturday.

My MAP sensor is brand new (I just replaced it, no change to the power issue) and my MAF sensor is brand new as well ( just replaced it too thinking it could be a mixture issue). I wonder if the dang turbo isn't just crapping out slowly??

My codes have been P0234, P0299, P0102 (when MAF unplugged) and an occasional glow plug code (not consistent, but I think it was a P126x). Might be fouling glow plugs with an improper mixture (lots of soot).

Anyway, I'm very interested to see how things work out in your case. I am mechanically inclined but may not opt to rip into things, depending on how involved the job seems.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Fri May 30, 2014 9:35 am

P0234 and 0299 - may be bad boost pressure solenoid (see bypass test at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70602&p=757348&hilit=boost+solenoid#p757348) or clogged air filter (replace) or clogged vacuum canister filter (little one hanging down on fender side of vacuum tower between air box and coolant tank - replace) or "maybe" clogged MAP sensor. Alternatively the P0299 has been known to relate to a melted vacuum line "upstream" from the vacuum canister and underneath the coolant tank where it goes past the exhaust manifold inside some heat protection tubing.

Turbo vane check procedures per GDE "You can check the vane functionality at idle in park. Underneath the vacuum actuator on the turbo is rod extending downward connected to the vane mechanism. If you pull off the vacuum line at the turbo, the arm should drop about 1/2 inch and then raise back up after reconnecting the vacuum line. It is a bit difficult to see the rod, but this is the easiest method to check for proper VGT vane movement." Fix is "italian tune up" or if really bad the turbo may have to be pulled to soak the vanes in oven cleaner to remove soot. Long term fix - get GDE tune to reduce soot formation.

P1261 - dead #1 glow plug - replace ASAP before tip breaks and damages engine/turbo internals.

Coolant leak - there are a host of places that can leak without it being a head gasket so start simple and cheap. Degrease/clean engine (no pressure wash lest you push water into electrical connections); add appropriate UV dye to coolant; drive for a few days; look for UV signs of leak with UV light (cheap on Amazon); fix as needed. FYI the OEM spring coolant line clamps are all well known for losing tension over time and due to reuse causing tiny coolant leaks.

maxf15 · **Joined:** Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:30 pm **Posts:** 52

Not to hi-jack the post, but maybe with identical symptoms, we'll collectively come up with a solution.

papaindigo - I think I may have found my coolant leak. Actually there were two, both related to bad factory clamps that were re-used when the new rediator hoses were replaced. I put normal hose clamps on.

I also replaced my upstream (passenger side) intercooler hose. It was a Samco already, but it had started to blister inside under the clamp. Maybe allowing some air to escape without a noticeable cut?? It seems to drive a little better, but there's still a noticeable lack of power from months previous.

My thoughts thus far... check me on this please:

1) Vacuum filter? Despite checking VGT vane movement on the vacuum actuator on top of the turbo (checked good), and vacuum (turbo vacuum hose holds vacuum fine, checked with a mighty vac hand pump), maybe the vacuum filter under the solenoid assembly is just not allowing enough flow? I'll probably replace it for good measure.

2) Injectors? Got 127k on the vehicle, original injectors. EHM and ORM since 60k miles, the turbo inlet hose (replaced two years ago - old one had a hole in it from oil breakdown). Currently no oil residue at all. Kinda ruling this out as the power seems fine at high RPM's (>2300-ish). Maybe the hole previously allowed premature wear on the turbo?

3) EGR stuck or leaky EGR hose? Not real familiar with the EGR, but with ORM (MAF unplugged) it is still exhibiting the same lack of power in the lower RPM band.

4) Deteriorating turbo? I inspected the upstream side of the turbo (didn't remove the unit), and the axial play is about 1/32 inch, radial play is probably 1/16th. Certainly not gross. But my low boost code just leads me to think it's mainly related to the turbo somehow.

5) Dirty intake? No way to gage this one without removing the valve covers, but wouldn't that be a problem at any RPM?

Thoughts??
Thanks.

maxf15 · **Joined:** Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:30 pm **Posts:** 52

Installed Torque Pro and OBDII Bluetooth Adapter... which may be indicating a serious problem. Seems my MAF value at idle, 90 degrees F and about 500 feet above Sea Level is hovering around 10.5 g/s!! I read somewhere GDE says less than 18 and it's rocker arm issue.

Can an EGR problem cause MAF readings to be off? What about vacuum issues as mentioned above?

Anything else cause MAF reading to be so low instead of rockers?

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

maxf15 wrote:

Installed Torque Pro and OBDII Bluetooth Adapter... which may be indicating a serious problem. Seems my MAF value at idle, 90 degrees F and about 500 feet above Sea Level is hovering around 10.5 g/s!! I read somewhere GDE says less than 18 and it's rocker arm issue.

Can an EGR problem cause MAF readings to be off? What about vacuum issues as mentioned above?

Anything else cause MAF reading to be so low instead of rockers?

You must be idle for over a minute before reading the MAF. This ensures the EGR is off if running the stock tune.

maxf15 · **Joined:** Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:30 pm **Posts:** 52

Thanks GDE.

I rarely get over 11-12 g/s even while at idle at a stop light after reaching normal operating temps. Is that always worn rockers?

Ok, so here's the latest:

Got a new vacuum solenoid and vacuum modulator on order, should be here tomorrow. In the meantime, I am getting consistent trouble codes:

P1261 - Glow Plug 1
P1267 - Glow Plug 3
P0299 - Turbo Underboost
P0564 - Cruise control multi-function input signal (yes, I have intermittent cruise issues, all written up on a separate thread)

I plan to install the vacuum system parts, replace all four glow plugs, and go from there. The problem is somewhat intermittent. 90% of the time there is the power loss and black smoke, but occasionally it snaps back to it's normal 'self' with ample power and low/no smoke. That leads me to believe it has to be a vacuum or electronic problem.

So a couple questions:

1) Rockers and turbo issues would be persistent, right??
2) Have the vac motors on top of the turbo been known to go bad?

dirtmover · **Posted:** Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:53 am

Your MAF may also be low if you're sucking air anywhere downstream of the sensor e.g the hose between the airbox and the turbo would be a possible culprit.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:13 pm

Yes, a giant rip in the hose from airbox to turbo is likely if you are on the original hose.

maxf15 · **Joined:** Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:30 pm **Posts:** 52

New turbo inlet hose about 30 months ago, did the EHM at the same time. I pulled it and inspected last week. It is incredibly clean, no holes, rips, tears, or even oil in it.

I installed the new vacuum solenoid and modulator tonight. Solenoid first, test drive, no change. Modulator next, test drive, somewhat better... I think. I'm going to drive it for a few days and see if it still throws codes.

I still think it may just be a deteriorating turbo, and/or the vacuum actuator for the variable vanes that's on top of the turbo. I'm at 127k miles, not sure how long these turbos are supposed to last. But I'm ready to quit smoking the guys out behind me up every hill.

maxf15 · **Joined:** Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:30 pm **Posts:** 52

I'm down to 18-20 mpg, power is low, and more black smoke. Guess I just need to bite the bullet and try installing a new turbo. I've read all the posts I can find on the install; and somewhere I read about Garrett's rebuilt program (rebuilt by the factory). The only rebuild I would trust would have to come directly from Garrett.

I checked Garrett's website but can't find anything on it.

Anyone know how to take advantage of that Garrett rebuild program? My web search isn't turning up anything.

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:37 pm

The Garrett rebuild program is for the ball bearing turbos. You send in a good rebuildable center section and they send you a new one for $400. The crds turbo is not ball bearing. Check out pureturbo.com they have remans for $500 I think with a one year warranty.
*edit* here's the link, its $629.99 http://www.pureturbos.com/store/oem-fac ... /jeep.html

thermorex · **Posted:** Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:41 pm

And there is another rebuilt company South of Cleveland, don't remember the name, but they do rebuild any turbo, usually they have them on stock and return the core $ when they receive the old unit.

Edit: http://www.xsboostturbochargers.com/pro ... gory/jeep/

I'd buy a new one though...

striperman36 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:23 pm

I thought our turbo's weren't rebuildable?

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:45 pm

Garrett does not recommend rebuilding them and does not at this time rebuild them. I do know some places sell ones that have been rebuilt and you can buy kits to rebuild them but the latter did not go well for geordi. Frankly my personal opinion is I'm not betting my engine to save ca. $5-600 on a rebuilt turbo given that failure of the turbo shaft "seal" can pump the engine oil sump dry in seconds and take your engine with it.

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:49 pm

A rebuilt turbo can be just as good or even better than factory. A good rebuilder such as gpop shop or pure turbos can put better than factory parts in, and more often balance them better cuz there not trying to balance 5,000 a day like the factory.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:47 am

diesel_guy86 wrote:

A rebuilt turbo can be just as good or even better than factory. A good rebuilder such as gpop shop or pure turbos can put better than factory parts in, and more often balance them better cuz there not trying to balance 5,000 a day like the factory.

Or they may have better equipment or they may have better trained, more experienced technicians. Just because the factory doesn't rebuild doesn't mean it's technically not feasible. They may be choosing not to for purely economic or business reasons.

Of course choosing the correct shop is a completely different issue.

maxf15 · **Joined:** Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:30 pm **Posts:** 52

As it stands, all my symptoms are adding up to a blocked (stuck open) EGR. Even pulling the MAF sensor can't fix that. So I'm getting normal boost above 2000 rpm, all the way up to 21.4 at WOT, but it's squat below that rpm - causing all the low boost codes, low power, and black smoke.

Sooooo, I am going small first. Ordered an intake kit from weeks101 today (Sasquatch Motorsports). Pulled my Libby all apart tonight (had to replace a glow plug anyway... so of course I'm doing all four); and I'll slap that EGR deleting kit in and see if that fixes everything. Soon after I'm going with GDE's eco tune to get rid of the no-EGR check engine light, plus all the other stuff that tune does. The stock intake elbow I took off tonight wasn't nearly as bad as many I've seen here on the forum. Inside the intake itself, I didn't see any buildup at all. Black, but no gunk.

After the EGR delete (elbow kit) and GDE tune, if I still get low boost, guess I'll bite the bullet and slap a new turbo in.

Heck, after all that, she should be good-to-go!

maxf15 · **Joined:** Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:30 pm **Posts:** 52

Ok, elbow kit installed (including the EGR blank off plate, left the EGR physically installed, but pulled the MAF sensor (ORM)). New glow plugs installed (glow plug codes cleared, small victory!). EGR coolant circuit eliminated. All went back together without a hitch.

Unfortunately I still have very low power and black smoke below about 2000 RPM. And it's still throwing a P0299 low boost. Even got a P0234 (Overboost) after a WOT run that sent the engine into limp mode. :banghead:

In testing the vacuum VVT actuator, I got it to stick a couple times. Is there any way to clean out or even replace the vacuum motor, or am I better off just dropping the $1200 to get a new turbo? I'm running out of options (actually I'm running out of $$$)!

Any help here would be much appreciated.

thermorex · **Posted:** Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:58 pm

Italian tune-up, but with care so won't go in limp mode. If that won't work, and the vanes are still sticking, I don't know how this works and if this works, but you may have to take the turbo out and use some carb cleaner or soak the vane part in gasoline. I'd also take out the shaft and rings, so it won't be any dirt. A pain in the arse though...

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