Bad engine noise?

lacabrera · **Posted:** Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:19 pm

I have an annoying sound from my CRD engine. Its not a rattle sound like rocker problem. It don't sound like a bearing problem. Its more of a rumble/grinding sound. I pulled the serpentine belt to remove alternator/viscous heater/steering pump etc. Sound still present but not so bad. I stuck a small funnel with a short hose stuck it to my ear and started to search for the noise. The only noise above the normal I would say was coming from the CP3 pump? Should the pump make much noise?

flman · **Posted:** Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:18 am

lacabrera wrote:

I have an annoying sound from my CRD engine. Its not a rattle sound like rocker problem. It don't sound like a bearing problem. Its more of a rumble/grinding sound. I pulled the serpentine belt to remove alternator/viscous heater/steering pump etc. Sound still present but not so bad. I stuck a small funnel with a short hose stuck it to my ear and started to search for the noise. The only noise above the normal I would say was coming from the CP3 pump? Should the pump make much noise?

Well, if you are hearing a new sound, it is not a good thing. Maybe you are hearing the idler near the pump, cause I am not sure how well a worn pump would run the engine? I would pull the timing belt and check all the pulleys by hand, including the pump.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:56 pm

Hi Thanks for the reply, Timing belt, idler pulley's, tensioner and water pump all replaced about 2000 miles ago so I guess its not that. The sound has been there since owning the Jeep, had a second set of ears take a listen today and he fault it was just a vibration noise coming from the timing belt cover?
Is it possible the vacuum pump?

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:48 pm

IIRC, the vacuum pump is located somewhere in the back of this motor, I'm not entirely sure where. I'm well familiar with the front however.

Grumbling noises can easily be a bearing, and just because it is only 2000 miles old, doesn't mean that it isn't an idler bearing. It would be unusual, sure, but it is still possible. It isn't a huge amount of work to pull the timing cover, and I wouldn't leave it unresolved since you both have now suggested that the noise is coming from behind that cover. Anything bad that happens in there gets really expensive, really fast. Maybe it is as simple as a bolt backing out that wasn't tightened properly from the water pump job, but you need to know what happened or is happening in there,

lacabrera · **Posted:** Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:29 pm

Thanks for the reply geordi, I read many of your posts and you know theses like the back of your hand. I just ordered weeks 101 elbow to replace the swirl motor. Going to pull the inlet manifold/cam cover at the same time, so back into the timing belt again and check all. Have you ever had problems with the balance shafts making a noise?

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:54 pm

I haven't heard of anybody having any issues with the balance shafts, and here's why: They are in the bottom of the motor in the oil pan. If you've never seen the movie Galaxy Quest, watch it. Its really good. Near the end of the movie, there is a sequence with "big stompers" that one of the characters has to run through. Big giant presses, coming down in sequence for dramatic effect.

The balance shafts are like that. Two geared shafts that are linked to each other (the gears mesh) and are directly driven by the crankshaft through those gears - with four different 2-inch-wide weights that barely slide past each other as they rotate. Anything that would fall into this assembly would either be munched to powder instantly... Or would jam-stop the entire motor fairly violently. I don't know of any way that those could come apart, they seemed to be solid cast, and then installed into a carrier that bolts to the bottom of the motor. Quite heavy.

Now, on your motor - Why pull the top cover? Is there a problem in the rockers that you are looking for? Since you are planning to go in there anyway, I would strongly suggest installing the ARP studs (you will be right there when the cover is lifted) and PLEASE record the release torques for the research sticky thread. For what its worth, anything that I've heard on the bottom end problems aren't grumbling noises - that really does suggest a pulley or other bearing - but bottom end noises tend to be banging / knocking / kabooming.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:29 pm

I think I have tracked down the noise? I am 99% sure its the vacuum pump. If you have nether gone that deep into this engine its runs of the crankshaft at the front of the engine along with the oil pump. When you remove the rear timing cover to replace the water pump the vacuum pump is behind a third cover. You have to remove the crankshaft centre bolt (left hand thread)and spigot to remove the cover.
Removing the cam cover is to give it a good clean and inspect the rockers for ware. I know the ARP studs are best, but at that price? The originals have lasted 80,000 miles with no head gasket problem so going with new originals, hopefully last another 80,000. I can take release torques if it helps the forum.

RockyMountainYote · **Joined:** Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:32 pm **Posts:** 77

You're right, the vac pump is just behind the back timing cover. Its odd that you're having a problem with it, there's nothing to them.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:44 pm

I'd remove the FCV and EGR before I got that far into it. I've heard of the FCV motor causing some strange noises, and you're pulling them anyhow.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:23 pm

Found the problem, oil pump, replaced it all good vibes.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:44 pm

Ok, question - Where is the oil pump in the engine, and what did you have to remove to get it out? I thought the oil pump was in the pan, I know the "flying saucer" pickup is in the bottom of the oil pan. Was there any way to inspect the crankshaft / bearings while you had the oil pump out?

This could be beneficial to anyone that may have a bottom end problem in the future. At the moment, I know of zero ways to inspect or replace the bearings without pulling the whole block.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:02 pm

Hi geordi, The oil pump is behind the front crankcase cover, no need to remove the oil pan. On the older 2.8 CRD ones with metal oil pan (I don't think you had them in US) had the fly saucer type oil pick up, but the newer 2.8 with alloy oil pan have no fly saucer. oil pick up is built into the oil pan. To gain access to the oil pump remove timing belt, rear cover and than crankcase cover. Behind is vacuum pump, oil pump both driven with a gear ring off he crank shaft. If your doing the water pump add about an hour to replace the oil pump.
Since replacing my oil pump pressure has increased and tappet noise is less?

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:20 pm

Very interesting. The 2005 that I fully tore down when scrapping it had the flying saucer, and that was the USA version obviously. I don't know about engine #2, but I believe it would have been the same. Engine #2 was the one that I installed the pressure gauge in to, with PapaIndigo's assistance.

My oil pressure at idle on a warm / hot engine (normal temp) was around 18psi, and I wasn't happy at all with that. The gauge probe was in the main oil gallery on the side of the block that feeds the turbo and the rest of the engine. In theory, that should be the same pressure as the one by the oil filter on the bottom... But I wanted to be certain I was reading the primary pressure that was feeding the block and the main bearings.

What is your current oil pressure at idle and warm, and where are you reading it from? What was it before?

And even more important - are there any options for oil pump replacement, such as higher volume or performance?

lacabrera · **Posted:** Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:18 pm

Maybe I am miss interpreting the term flying saucer. I have not removed the oil pan on my 2005 but have on my older 2003 that had the large round oil pick up.
I purchased a original VM oil pump I don't know of any modified or higher output versions. We used to play around with the pressure relief spring on other engines to gain higher pressures at high RPM but it would not increase pumping capacity at lower RPM. Personally I think these engines suffer with poor pressures in the low RPM range.
I would say your 18psi is a fair reading for a hot engine at idle. I will let you know my readings, I am using an old mechanical gauge and the needle tends to bounce and noticed an increase but have not as yet made a mental note on actual psi.

thermorex · **Posted:** Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:13 pm

Geordi, why do you think 18 psi is not enough? I have 20 at 180 degrees oil and about 18 when it gets towards 200. It's been like that since I install the gauges. I agree with lacabera, 18 psi is a good pressure, even for a 40 weight oil.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:12 pm

I know most of this is old hat, but all this oil pressure talk has me tempted to email Garrett and see what they say about their turbos (5w or 0w) since they are a common point of failure. I'd also like to gain the 1mpg from using the lighter oil, but I'm afraid that the turbo bearing wouldn't like the thinner layer of oil. Other than the turbo, I haven't seen any evidence that the zero weight would hurt the other bearings, as they seem to hold up.

Lacabrera: Does the 0/5 weight argument take place in Europe also, and do you all mostly use zero weight?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:10 pm

Mountainman wrote:

I know most of this is old hat, but all this oil pressure talk has me tempted to email Garrett and see what they say about their turbos (5w or 0w) since they are a common point of failure. I'd also like to gain the 1mpg from using the lighter oil, but I'm afraid that the turbo bearing wouldn't like the thinner layer of oil. Other than the turbo, I haven't seen any evidence that the zero weight would hurt the other bearings, as they seem to hold up.

Lacabrera: Does the 0/5 weight argument take place in Europe also, and do you all mostly use zero weight?

IMO, the 0w-40 oil would matter less for the turbo than other engine parts.
The turbo, while spinning very hot and fast, doesnt carry any kind of load.
The rocker arms however, have at least 100 lbs of force to contend with.
And unlike the other rotating, load bearing engine components, the rocker arms only receive splash lubrication.

Ive used 5w-40 for as long as ive owned my CRD. At 160,000 miles my rockers were still in good shape.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:43 am

Mountainman wrote:

I know most of this is old hat, but all this oil pressure talk has me tempted to email Garrett and see what they say about their turbos (5w or 0w) since they are a common point of failure. I'd also like to gain the 1mpg from using the lighter oil, but I'm afraid that the turbo bearing wouldn't like the thinner layer of oil. Other than the turbo, I haven't seen any evidence that the zero weight would hurt the other bearings, as they seem to hold up.

Lacabrera: Does the 0/5 weight argument take place in Europe also, and do you all mostly use zero weight?

I personally use 5W-30 fully synthetic. This is the recommended oil for the newer version of the 2.8 fitted to JK's. My personal view is its not so much the oil weight but more frequent oil changes.
The purpose of using a 0 weight oil has its benefits on cold engine start up especially in cold climates. The oil pump can circulate the oil much easier and faster because its thinner. It all depends on were you live, if the cars outside in winter with many cold starts than I would use a 0w oil. If you live in a hot climate than a thicker oil maybe as high as 10w.
Draw back with 0w is in hot climates and hard driving lots of high turbo boost the oil will become very thin and oil pressure may drop off. Its getting a happy medium and I personally would stick with 5w.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:57 pm

Here is the primary misconception that I see from so many people:

If the temperatures are above freezing and / or the engine has raised the oil temperature above freezing by being started and running...

The oil is not an xW anymore, it is the other number!

0W, 5W, 10W... All mean NOTHING AT ALL when the temperature of the oil and the surrounding engine are above 32F. At that point, it is a 30 weight or 40 weight.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:14 pm

Hmm, alright, I think I'll stick with 5w, but just plug it in when it gets really cold. Thanks for all of the advice! I'll soon see how good my rockers are at 180k miles when I install the ARP's. They should be ok since I have good MAF readings, but I'll probably put new ones in anyhow since I don't want to get back in there for 300k miles.

Flash, now you have me thinking. Wouldn't the lighter oil splash on the rockers better cold and hot? I agree it would help with the load on the bearings at start up.

Lacabrera, I do live in a cold climate, but I only get below freezing for a few months, and only use the Jeep a few times a week on average.

Geordi, so the 5w will help the bearings at start up, but it might not get there in time because it's thicker than 0w. And then, after it runs a short while we need to look at the other end of the viscosity? hmm, I hadn't seen endless debates about the other number. What do you think since you've seen more splash-lubed top ends than just about anyone?

Bad engine noise?

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