HONDA DIESEL IN USA

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:15 pm

Sorry to leave the impression that I was knocking the Pilot, I was not. There was previous discussion here that left the impression that Honda seemed to always do things right and got great mileage. While I like Honda I would disagree about their reputation of economy and perfection.

I had a Honda Civic that I loved. It got great mileage, it was a hoot to drive and was a wonderful car. It was not perfect, Honda did not always stand behind it, and the dealer was far from perfect. After about 15,000 miles the paint began to flake off the door and window pillars in small ways and off the front rocker panel in big ways. The issue went all the way to the DM, perhaps beyond, and Honda always passed the buck back to the dealer who in turn passed it back to Honda. On a nearly new dealer oil change I found a big puddle of oil on the ground under it the morning after but when I checked the dip stick it was full. The dealer blamed the leak on a double gasket on the filter but from then on either the front or rear seal leaked slightly and neither the dealer nor Honda would cover a repair. The dealer consistently put 7 Qts of oil in the 6.5 Qt crankcase. Periodically, after around 25K miles the car would just die but start up fine perhaps 10 minutes later and Honda couldn't tell us why. It turned out that a fuel pump cutout relay under the dash had points that were crudded up. I went to 5 dealers and couldn't buy the relay so I pried the metal cap off and filed the points with a point file and it worked great after that. At 85K the manual transmission began to fail and the cost of repair was impractical so I traded it off. I still loved the car but my experience with it was no better than the Liberty.

When the Pilot came out I took a long look at it as I was trying to help my son get a new business concept off the ground that needed a tow vehicle and my car was wearing out. My goal was to find a good, economic, mid-sized SUV that would serve multiple needs. For my needs the Pilot was not outstanding in terms of hauling capacity (both internal and towing), type of fuel and mileage. Today if the Pilot were available in a diesel that got over 30 MPG highway and easily towed 5K I would certainly consider it but right now I don't believe that it is anymore outstanding in its niche than it was when I first looked at it. On the other hand I would consider and Odessey if I were looking at a van. My point is and was that Honda has feet of clay and not every deceision they make is perfect and their product support is not always stellar. If I were driving an Accord Hybrid I would not be a happy Honda client because that run was much shorter than the CRD which is still going strong, just not in North America, and there was no 30% fuel consumption advantage for beiing part of that experiment.

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:16 pm

Dave is right, fair is fair,Honda isn't perfect. But they are generally considered better to have a better rep than Jeep, backed up by Consumer Reports and a few other reviewers (I know, I know CR is full of blah blah, but they DO te most tests...compared to most).

A diesel minivan would be a knock-out in my opionion, but might not sell (nobody is more skiddish than a soccer mom). That Odessey IS comfy, nicely styled and roomy, multi use and whatnot. Still, diesel heads aren't really in that market. But if the mileage is a show-stopper, people will pay attention.

The Pilot is nice, but since I spent all this time de-bugging my Jeep, I'd proably stik with it...I don't need to ehlp Honda AND Jeep figure out their first-year production issues. The Accord could easily replace my TDI Jetta because it is bigger, looks like similar to bettermileage, and would assumably be cheap enough to take a risk on a first-year production. Maybe 22k?or am I dreaming?

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:31 pm

I love my CRD but I might not had I gone through what others have. I need my P/U but if the Jeep became too much of a hassle I would consider replacing the P/u with a newer diesel and replacing the Jeep with a diesel Accord. That would cover all of the bases for me the way the Jeep and the P/U do now. The P/U is just old, less reliable, too big and gets rotten mileage. I wold not want to rely on ti if we had a kick *ss winter.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:42 pm

I can agree that Honda is far from perfect, especially if you figure in the price bump. Feel the same way about Toyota. Looked at both when I bought my last daily commuter sedan. Probably could have tolerated a Civic, maybe with an air-ride seat and ear plugs. Accord & Camry were just too pricey for my tastes and given where I park at work would need to chain it to the pavement if I expected it to still be there for the ride home. Eventually decided to keep @ $6K in my pocket and get an Impala which after 3 years/70K miles has been virtually trouble-free. Maybe I just got lucky on this one but thus far, it's been much less expensive to own/maintain than the Camry it replaced.

Also was leaning toward the new Tundra when replacing my CRD. Wanted an odd-spec in their eyes (regular cab, 8 ft. box, 4X4). Pretty much got nothing more than excuses from several local Toyota dealers about finding a RC-LB 4X4. Was more than willing to wait on a factory order, just seemed like nobody would give me a straight answer....and discounts/incentives?, forget about it (was going out the door at sticker). Chevy was able to build and deliver exactly what I wanted in less than 4 weeks at a price point that was easliy $5K under the Tundra. I guess Toyota's business is that good, how dare I ask them to price-match with Ford & GM.

jinstall · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:06 am

300C AWD 3.0 CRD with Xenon and I am sold. Too bad I can't bring one back with me to the US.

Sorry but I would never buy a mid size sedan diesel without AWD.

bhysjulien · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:36 am

I'm still waiting for the Wrangler Rubicon, 4 door, CRD. Until then I'll drive the KJ CRD. Hopefully by the time they build it or the Rescue (if I'm going to dream I'll dream BIG) I'll have the KJ paid down enough to afford one.

longarm · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:29 am

KJbob wrote:

ccattie wrote:

If I want to go off road I'll use a Wrangler (they're more fun!)
If the weather gets too bad I'll use a Wrangler (or stay home)

For me, it's a win win situation.

Yup, what he said. If I happen to slide off the road into a ditch, I can either whip out the tow strap and flag someone down, or most likely activate both lockers and use the skinny pedal until I burn through to dirt, catch and hop out of the ditch.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

Cowcatcher wrote:

I was invited to the local dealers "Pilot and Civic Hybrid" roll out in 2003 (?) and was told then that the Pilot took premium. The fact was repeated whenever I looked at one after, in write-ups I read and it was certainly true of the MDX. If Honda errored in their marketing that was certainly a huge error on their part. Either that or they retuned the engine in later products. Ultimately the Pilot motor found it's way into the Saturn Vue but that was likely 2005.

From the 2003-2004 Honda Pilot manual:
[url]
http://www.hondapilot.org/forums/attach ... tid=151121[/url]

My neighbor has a 2004.

I don't think Honda or Toyota are perfect, by any stretch. I had a 97 Civic HX that was awesome (and implemented a fairly durable CVT transmission long before anyone else really tried it). However, it had no sound insulation and horrendous road noise, and a suspension that was craptacular. Toyota had their issues with sludge in V6 engines. However, in general, both companies are known for making a superior product in terms of design quality, fit and finish, and quality of materials.

My personal experience tends to reinforce that view.

My feeling that a diesel Pilot would likely produce better MPG figures than our CRD's comes from the fact that the gasser Pilot gets substantially better MPG than the gasser Liberty. Which is a bit of a bummer, as the Pilot is a good deal larger vehicle.[url][/url]

chadhargis · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:30 pm

I've never understood how Honda does what it does with fuel economy. I've owned a Civic EX, an Accord EX, and now a Odyssey EX. All of them get really good fuel milage and have power to spare. Even the minivan will get up and scoot.

For some reason, US auto makers can't do it. They either make an engine with good power but it gets terrible fuel mileage, or they make a fuel sipper that won't move out of its own way. I had a PT Cruiser that was BOTH. It had almost a dangerous lack of power, and got pitiful mileage (19mph in town...26 on the highway). It was a 5-speed to boot! I put new plugs, wires, coil, and cleaned the intake (which was nasty), and it didn't make much difference.

Had that been a Honda, it would have had a lot more power and got much better mileage.

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:39 pm

LIGHT...They are very light.

Pull out 800-1000# out of the CRD and mileage would jump...along with performance.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

Weight and engine technology. My 97 Civic HX had variable valve timing, lean burn injection, and a continuously variable transmission. In an economy car that weighed 2500 pounds.

Got around 38 mpg highway, 32 mpg city.

Of course, some of those same technologies can be applied differently. The Honda Pilot has variable valve timing as well, but it uses it to generate more HP from a smaller engine (like Toyota's 4.0 V6 in the Tacoma/4Runner).

The thing that has always amazed me about weight and Honda (and Toyota/Subaru/VW) is how well their small, light cars score on crash tests.

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

I suspect that you will have to be satisfied with an automatic tranny on the diesel as Honda has been dropping manual transmissions in most of its models and has plans to keep reducing down the number of vehicles with manual clutches.

checkylater · **Posted:** Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:30 am

Finally a choice for diesel other than VW and MB. Don't get me wrong I love my
94 VW TD, but I like the fact there's going to be added competition to the marketplace. I'm surprised its taken this long for it to happen.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:03 am

DarbyWalters wrote:

LIGHT...They are very light.

Pull out 800-1000# out of the CRD and mileage would jump...along with performance.

Indeed. I've often wondered what would happen if I could drop the CRD drivetrain into the '87 MB, being it's over 1000 lbs lighter than the Jeep.

Could probably get a good idea from Oldnavy's '05 MB. Similar size engine and HP/torque levels, 1000 lbs lighter than the CRD, knocks down 37 MPG highway without breaking a sweat.

Johnboy · **Posted:** Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:08 pm

Put a 6 speed mannual in the liberty designed for the power band of the VM 2.8. Turn the motor up to VM specs. Solve the EGR conundrum. I would buy this combo repeatedly until I could not drive any longer, or transportaion as we know it is gone. Shouldnt be that hard or expensive for DC to do...

HONDA DIESEL IN USA

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