An IDI engine will run with the injection pump one full revolution out of time with the injection taking place at TDC Exhaust, run like total crap with no power that is. At 40 degrees BTDC the IDI Diesel engine will run like total crap too.
Try this on a DI diesel, it will never start, let alone run.
Since advancing the injection timing too much puts a stronger shock load on the engine including the glow plugs, it defies Logic and the Laws of Physics to claim the glow plugs can not be effected. Not having the injector spray pattern hit the glow plug will help reduce thermal shock, but not the shock from the increased knock that can be beyond design limits by advancing timing too much.
Has Chrysler, VM, or GDE run destructive testing to verify the GDE Hypothesis that advancing timing excessively will destroy other engine components before the glow plugs fail? Some how, I don't think so, it would be stupid to do so. Therefore the Hypothesis, is a Theory unless backed up with destructive validation testing.
The objective of Contract Tuners is to tune the engine ECM to meet emissions regulations with out destroying engines in the warranty period, even when they are driven by total complete idiots.
Metal glow plugs are less fragile than ceramic glow plugs, any shock load (including excess timing advance)
can put the glow plugs at greater risk of failure.
The point to validate my choice of going with InMotion Stage 2 over GDE Hot Tune is that GDE toes up closer to the edge with their timing advance than InMotion does.
I chose what I saw as the lower risk performance tune option based upon my years of experience.
As far as the Cummins 5.9L there are units putting out 1,000HP that hold together, but there are other driven by those who are Centavo wise and Mega Buck foolish who have melted down pistons and blown head gaskets from advancing timing too much.
The GM 6.2L, 6.5L, and 6.5L Turbo engines had metal glow plugs that were trashed by excessive timing advance, since these engines were designed to have some of the injector spray hit the glow plug, the spray angle argument is a mute point, since the only variable was over advanced injection timing.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

Holy crap, 40°BTDC! I can't imagine what that is like! Our JD ecus were limited to 10°BTDC! Can't imagine what sort of different behaviors happen that early!

_________________
http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

With 40 degrees of timing advance it would be regarded as PCCI or HCCI combustion. Most newer diesels use twin pilot injection prior to the main injection, these pilots occur between 5-50 degrees before TDC. Typically the pilots are very small quanities 1-5 mm^3. The older engines warp is talking about do not operate with this type of injection system.

Destructive testing for timing advance does not make sense. We use cylinder pressure transducers in place of a glow plug and measured the rate of increase in pressure during the combustion event to ensure it does not go past the design limits of the head. In fact, having the pilot injection way advanced and the main injection before TDC (with the proper time gap between injections) we are able to obtain a smooth ramp rate for the rise in cylinder pressure. We can also broaden the burn cycle over more degrees of rotation, thus increasing the "area under the curve". This means more torque at a lower peak pressure. Yes we do have data to support our tune, otherwise we would not be selling it!

We would appreciate it if our tunes are not disparaged by those who have not tested or tried it. If someone does have our tunes and is not satisfied, that is a different story and we will work to make them happy. But discrediting without trying...

_________________
Providers of wholly developed aftermarket solutions for the KJ CRD.
(248) 977 - 9531

Stating that based upon what you publish and that you go closer to the edge than your competition to obtain more fuel economy is not disparaging information, just a fact I have used to make my decision. Since I do not work for GDE, or have any of my 401K invested in GDE, I have no interest other than stating other options are available.
Even though you have pressure sensors to generate data, the data is limited to where it is generated most likely in a dynamometer test cell that attempts to simulate real world conditions. Translated into simple English you are making an Engineering assumption. Many race engines have logged many hours in the test cell but failed in the early part of the race. Engines that have run for over 10,000 + hours on generator sets, will never see that life expectancy in other applications.
When it comes to another fact you publish on the elimination of one pilot injection and later injecting the fuel in the power stroke to generate more torque, I am in disagreement with this modification. The pilot injections are to reduces stress on the engine that is generated by the diesel knock and possibly control some emissions. With newer Common Rail Engines going to more smaller pilot injections to smooth out the engine, I my opinion you have taken a step backwards to make a short term gain, which again is stepping closer to the edge. True the newer piezoelectric injectors are faster than the solenoid injectors we have on our CRDs so please, spare us all the word smith crafted verbiage of not comparing apples to apples. In reality I am comparing Macintosh to Johnathan apples.
As far as your Customer Service goes, I have not criticized it (I have no reason to) or am I aware of anyone else criticizing or complaining about it, that is one area where you shine.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

In our JD common rail engine we did not have any pilot injection prior to the main event(between 10dBTD to -5 dBTDC for SOI(start of injection).

We ended up using a pressure transducer that was drilled and tapped into the cylinder head because it proved to be significantly more accurate than the glow plug replacements. Not to be critical but do you have any concerns that the same can happen on the VM engine during your testing?

Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread, but sometimes I can't help myself when this stuff comes up.

_________________
http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

We have used both instumented glow plugs and cylinder taps in the past. Most OEMs use the glow plug hole for cylinder pressure testing as this is much easier and does not weaken the cylinder head. With the glow plug we are able to have active cylinder pressure for our validation trips over the road for altitude, hot weather, trailer towing and cold weather testing. It is more common to drill the head for dyno cell testing as the engine is usually scrapped afterwards.

Is the JD a standard pump and line injection system? The pilot injection is primarily used for emission reduction as you can slow the pressure rise down and reduce the NOx formation with lower peak firing temperatures. It also doubles as noise reduction. JD either did not have the technology on that engine family or they just did not need it to meet emissions. Pilot injections tend to lower the overall fuel efficiency slightly.

_________________
Providers of wholly developed aftermarket solutions for the KJ CRD.
(248) 977 - 9531

Yup you hit the nail on the head, Tier II engine - all our NOx control was done with timing for start of injecting, no need for pilot injection.

_________________
http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

As far as estimated cost:
My original repair quote was $220 for cylinders #1 + #2. 'Course it turned out that my harness is bass-ackwards and what really failed was #3 + #4, but the dealer honored the quote for the simpler pair.

So if you double the cost of #1 + #2 to get cost of #3 + #4, then add back in the original cost of #1 + #2, my first guess is an estmated $660 for all four.

There are still ceramic glow plugs (p/n 05142577AA) sitting on dealer shelves, but no new ones are coming from Bosch.

I have heard through the grapevine that the metallic plugs are on their way, but I haven't seen any part numbers yet.

And, yes, I want metallic plugs installed in my new engine.

And no, I don't think the GDE tune could be responsible for my engine failing three sets within 1500 miles.

And yes, my replacement long block is still on backorder. One month and counting.

_________________
2005 CRD Limited Flame Red w/ Renegade rock rails & light bar, AirLift 1000. 225/75R16 MT/R's on cheap black steel wheels, dual MOPAR subwoofers, Ipod kit & seat covers, Samco hoses - totaled and gone. 2008 WK Laredo 3.0L diesel - AirLift 1000, wife won't let me mess with it much. 2013 JK Sahara on order.

Pictures courtesy of SootFoot at tdiclub.com



This is a metal glow plug made in Taiwan for a '04 - '06 Beetle TDI (BEW engine). You can see the Bosch part #0 250 302 002.



It is 7 volts!



Bosch (so hopefully VSP)=
7 volt
M10x1.0
tip reach - 27mm
total length - 94mm

Jeep=
7 volt
M10x1.0
tip reach - 26mm
total length - 130mm

What do you think? Possible solution?
Part # - VSP PU-202

The length is critical and the glow plug you show will not work as it is not long enough to protrude into the combustion chamber. I would bide your time and hopefully Chrysler will release a fast metallic glow plug soon!

_________________
Providers of wholly developed aftermarket solutions for the KJ CRD.
(248) 977 - 9531

Recall?
It seems if we were bought out by VW instead, it could have been a re-recall by now.