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 Post subject: Re: CARB NOT busted
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:03 am 
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Wobbly wrote:
warp2diesel wrote:
Wobbly wrote:
Of course, we are not to discuss the CARB Religion, just the facts in this forum.


Sorry if I mistook this scholarly discussion for right-wing bloviating.


Example of Left Wing Emotional Argument when the facts do not support the point.

The vast majority of us (Mainstream Left, Center, and Right) support sound environmental management not stupid Emotional Argument Based Reactions.
The actions of CARB is as stupid as a Social Worker filing Child Abuse Charges against a Parent for polity asking a child to put their bicycle away. If I had the CARB attitude, all of the tobacco products, tobacco plants, and seeds in the world would be eradicated because of my allergy to tobacco. CARB and some of those in the EPA have no common sense or ability to competently manage, they just pull garbage out of their butt and put it on paper, exaggerate it until it supports their point, and then cook up costly regulations.

Sorry if you find common sense and sound environmental management to be Right Wing Blovuiating.
We have all had enough of the Acid Head Hippie Hallucination Inspired Insane Regulations CARB has cooked up.

Justice needs to be served on those in CARB and the EPA who have committed acts that are considered to be criminal in the Corporate World and Public Sector. They should have no immunity because of who issues their pay checks. Also those in CARB and the EPA should have the same Civil Liabilities as we have in the Private Sector.

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Last edited by warp2diesel on Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: CARB NOT busted
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:10 am 
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warp2diesel wrote:
We have all had enough of the Acid Head Hippie Hallucination Inspired Insane Regulations CARB has cooked up.


X2

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 Post subject: Re: CARB busted
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:29 am 
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Glad to see that you are not resorting to emotional argument yourself.

Exactly who at CARB should be charged with precisely which state or federal crime?


Last edited by Wobbly on Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: CARB busted
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:46 am 
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Wobbly wrote:
Glad to see that you are not resorting to emotional argument yourself.

Exactly who at CARB should be charged with precisely which state or Federal crime?


ha ha... nice!! You have to love the "do as I say, not as I do argument"


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 Post subject: Re: CARB NOT busted
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:42 am 
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"Faulty Pollution Science in California? Think again.


It’s easy to get carried away with faulty science claims with the significant changes of late to the California Air Resources Board’s diesel emissions inventory and to estimates of the health impacts of air pollution. Let’s keep some perspective here: The fact is that trucks and off-road construction equipment remain a major source of diesel pollution in California, and that fine particles (which often come from diesel) are responsible for vast amounts of illness including asthma, and thousands – Yes, thousands – of premature deaths each year according to US EPA. Given the tremendous health toll of polluting equipment, the air board’s diesel regulations provide important statewide public health protections. But let’s walk through the underpinnings of these regulations, which have been called into question."

continues at
http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/dbail ... in_ca.html


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 Post subject: Re: CARB NOT busted
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:10 am 
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Wobbly wrote:

Sorry if I mistook this scholarly discussion for right-wing bloviating.


Best post ever. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: CARB busted
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:47 pm 
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According to that NRDC article, we the public are to commend the CARB and EPA for adjusting their numbers after observation, rather than condemn them for wanting the usage numbers to be spoon-fed to them from the industry?

Sorry, that is counter to a primary tenet of being a scientist - Theorize, RESEARCH, investigate, TEST the theory, adjust theory according to results... Repeat.

They want to know how much diesels are being used on an average construction site? Then GO AND RESEARCH. Expecting data like that to be produced from an industry is unrealistic, and smacks of wanting others to do your job for you.

I also take issue with the obvious and continuing bias against diesel engines that the CARB and (by extension because they usually accept and 50-state Carb's regulations) the EPA continue to have.

"diesel pollution remains a potent health hazard, contributing to asthma and heart attacks, stunted lung growth in children, birth defects, more emergency room visits and higher death rates."

Oh, and the gasoline engine produces only fine spring air? How about the simple economy of scale, that there are EASILY 3 gas engines for every diesel in California? Gas engines are not that different from diesels. (I know, heresy for this board, but follow me on this) Both are internal combustion engines. Both consume a fuel that has the same basic elements. ANY FORM OF COMBUSTION PRODUCES THE SAME RESULTANT EMISSIONS - NOx, COx, SOx, and particulate matter.

Want proof that a gas engine produces soot too? Take any gas engine (a lawnmower or generator is an easy option for this experiment) and remove the muffler for a moment. Run the engine, and place a piece of clean white paper into the exhaust path. Notice how it isn't clean and white anymore? That soot is smaller and lighter than the particles from a diesel, which means several things:

The soot is more difficult to see from the tailpipe, but IT IS THERE ALL THE SAME.
The soot is much lighter, meaning that when carried aloft by the hot exhaust, it can remain airborne for much longer. Days are possible, versus minutes for diesel soot.
Because it can remain aloft longer, the cumulative effect over days can be obvious - smog.
Because the particles are so much smaller, the human body has a harder time filtering them out. The lungs are capable filters, down to about 5 microns in size. This is why dust and mold are such problems for respiratory systems - Those particles are smaller than 5 microns, and can pass the body's natural defenses and cause mayhem. Ditto for gasoline soot. Diesel soot, by its very nature of being VISIBLE, is closer to campfire soot than it is to gasoline soot. The average size is 15+ microns. To the filters in the lungs, this size particle would be like trying to put a fully inflated basketball into your mouth. Not happening.
By being so much larger, gravity pulls the diesel soot out of the air much faster, and the soot ends up as carbon dust on the ground - Dirt.

Do I think that soot is good for the environment? Not especially. HOWEVER, I still have to point out that diesel emissions are less hazardous (sulfur fuel content excepted) than gasoline. The "weekend smog effect" shows that having diesels on the road during the week can actually pull MORE gasoline soot out of the air than on the weekends. For the chemical emissions, I think that both engines can benefit from some treatments, but changing / treating the underlying FUEL will have a much stronger effect than trying to adapt the engine after the fact.

The best way to prevent a pollutant from being emitted is to NOT HAVE IT IN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. This is what the oil companies don't want you to believe or push for. Remember all the complaints about removing the lead from gasoline? I don't, I'm not old enough - it happened before my time. BUT, I do remember the whining about removing the sulfur from diesel. Nobody's engines have blown up, the main problem I have seen (and experienced myself) is that a rubber seal within my injection pump that had been expanded by the sulfur, shrank, cracked and failed with ULSD. Running BIODIESEL is better for the engine anyway, and doesn't have ANY of the harmful stuff that is in oil and oil emissions. How about ZERO sulfur, instead of 15ppm?

CO2 is not a pollutant per-se, but in high enough concentrations it can be bad. I agree with this. However, I have to point out that China and India are BOTH dumping FAR MORE CO2 into the air than the USA transportation sector is, so CARB and their focus on CO2 is pishing into the ocean. Besides, each of their aftertreatments just causes the engine to use MORE fuel, which creates MORE emissions! Use less fuel... You make less emissions. Period. Gas engines produce more harmful chemicals than diesels do, by the very nature of how they operate - Stoich. Diesels can super-lean out their mix when not working hard (low demand or idling) while a gas engine has to maintain that stoich ratio to avoid burning the top of a piston off. Ever heard of anyone committing suicide by idling a diesel in a closed garage? Doubtful - A diesel does produce CO, but nowhere near the level of a gas engine, even a small one! Every storm season there is a story of some moron running a generator in their garage and waking up dead. The lucky ones figure it out when they get a headache first. With a diesel, (don't try this at home!) the likely results would stop with just that headache, the levels are so low.

The people at CARB need to be held accountable to ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC RESULTS and an equal application of their goals. This constant boogeyman demonizing of diesels is counter-productive, unless you believe that they are on the take from the oil companies. If diesel had a larger penetration, there is a very good chance that a LOT LESS OIL would be needed... Which would nicely fit with CARB's ultimate goal - Reduction in emissions. For the people that have been shown on CARB's payroll to both falsify their science (and credentials) AND the board members who KNEW about the bogus information before key votes BASED on that information... JAILTIME. These people need to be held accountable to the public for the fraud they have been part of. GOOD SCIENCE has a peer review process for a reason. WHY is CARB allowed to bypass this process with something that will effect the lives of 300 million people?

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 Post subject: Re: CARB NOT busted
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:18 pm 
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chrismc wrote:
Wobbly wrote:

Sorry if I mistook this scholarly discussion for right-wing bloviating.


Best post ever. :mrgreen:


I see you are watching, but you are not contributing? Come on Captain, show us a pro CARB scientific analysis, don't let the planeteers do all the work.

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 Post subject: Re: CARB busted
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:22 pm 
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geordi wrote:
According to that NRDC article, we the public are to commend the CARB and EPA for adjusting their numbers after observation, rather than condemn them for wanting the usage numbers to be spoon-fed to them from the industry?


Great write up geordi 8)

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 Post subject: Re: CARB NOT busted
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:07 pm 
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Since the Association of General Contractors and the CARB have agreed on proposed changes to off-road diesel regulations, it will be up to the list's Non-Emotional Linear Reasoners to effect citizen arrests on the dodgy CARB number crunchers.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=159

BTW, where were the calls for jail time for the Wall Street executives who raped the US taxpayer and the SEC officials who allowed it? How about some jail time for those corporation executives involved in the Gulf oil spill? How about some jail time for the Corps of Engineer officers who were responsible for the flood walls and levees which failed when Katrina hit?
9-11? WMD? Glass-Steagall?


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 Post subject: Re: CARB busted
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:45 pm 
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geordi

Well said :BANANA:

Like all government agencies their main goal to perpetuate their agency and get bigger :goink:

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 Post subject: Re: CARB busted
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:47 pm 
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geordi X2!!!!


Wobbly: Again, you have resorted to the Emotional Circular Argument. Many Criminal Big Shots have been convicted, does the name Enron or Arthur B. Anderson ring a bell? Even some Politicians have been convicted, heck Illinois has two Governors in prison and one on his way. Engineers have been sued and some have been convicted of crimes.
Name me some of the Enviro Nazis other than Ted Kaczynski who have even been charged for their crimes. I wish I could find some.
I would bet that any of the University Professors who have Fabricated False Environmental Data instead of being sued or convicted, were sued for or convicted of other issues such as Rape or Sexual Harassment only because they are so arrogant, abusive, and narcissistic, making it a very easy way to get rid of them, even easier than firing them.
With some of the others, they will be brought to justice the same way, the easiest way their is to convict or sue them, Al Capone was convicted of Income Tax Evasion, not murder. Do you believe he never murdered any one?

Contractors don't care what it costs as long as it costs their competition the same, when it costs more they make more money. When it comes with their deal with CARB, they have no incentive in fighting them, that cost big bucks, besides when it costs more they make more. If the price of refrigerant oil goes up, flman and other HVAC contractors would make more money and HVAC would cost the home owner or business owner more.

Waste Water Operators municipal or industrial can be convicted for falsifying numbers in their logs (as it should be), CARBs clowns should suffer the same fate for falsifying their numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: CARB busted
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:59 pm 
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Nice job Geordi. I was disappointed in the sheer scale that CARB's numbers were off. Even in the article, they hid some of the enormity of the problem by changing between multipliers and percent. I'm too tired to go back and pull them back out of the article and convert them to the same decimal point but the they were effectively off 100%, 300% and 400% in their estimates. It gives people that actually use science every day a bum rap. This level of falsification and deceit would get me fired...and I'd deserve it. People can make a mistake and people can be stupid. This was intentional and CARB should be shut down.

Think of all the damage they have done. I am surprised that nobody went back and checked when other studies were done and other edicts from CARB proclaimed...and turned our Libby's into a forgotten test market for history with a 2yr market run... I wonder how many other engines and technologies were shelved because of these bogus assumptions.
:5SHOTS:
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 Post subject: Re: CARB busted
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:12 pm 
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boilermaker2 wrote:
Nice job Geordi. I was disappointed in the sheer scale that CARB's numbers were off. Even in the article, they hid some of the enormity of the problem by changing between multipliers and percent. I'm too tired to go back and pull them back out of the article and convert them to the same decimal point but the they were effectively off 100%, 300% and 400% in their estimates. It gives people that actually use science every day a bum rap. This level of falsification and deceit would get me fired...and I'd deserve it. People can make a mistake and people can be stupid. This was intentional and CARB should be shut down.

Think of all the damage they have done. I am surprised that nobody went back and checked when other studies were done and other edicts from CARB proclaimed...and turned our Libby's into a forgotten test market for history with a 2yr market run... I wonder how many other engines and technologies were shelved because of these bogus assumptions.
:5SHOTS:
Boilermaker2


X2!!

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 Post subject: Re: CARB busted
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:22 am 
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I want to know how anyone defending CARB in this thread can bring themselves to drive a diesel??

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 Post subject: Re: CARB NOT busted
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:48 am 
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For the CARB experts on the forum:

http://www.dieselforum.org/news-center/ ... california


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 Post subject: Re: CARB busted
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:09 am 
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onthehunt wrote:
I want to know how anyone defending CARB in this thread can bring themselves to drive a diesel??


On what criteria do you base your allegation of hypocrisy?
Please be specific.


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 Post subject: Re: CARB busted
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:20 am 
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boilermaker2 wrote:
Nice job Geordi. This level of falsification and deceit would get me fired...and I'd deserve it. People can make a mistake and people can be stupid. This was intentional and CARB should be shut down.
Boilermaker2



California voters could have shut CARB down through the initiative process. They apparently don't share your opinion. Maybe having to breathe the air in California's basins has something to do with this opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: CARB busted
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:00 am 
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Wobbly wrote:
boilermaker2 wrote:
Nice job Geordi. This level of falsification and deceit would get me fired...and I'd deserve it. People can make a mistake and people can be stupid. This was intentional and CARB should be shut down.
Boilermaker2



California voters could have shut CARB down through the initiative process. They apparently don't share your opinion. Maybe having to breathe the air in California's basins has something to do with this opinion.


Emotional Circular Argument Déjà vu.
Besides California has so many problems to deal with, CARB is not on the top of the list, nothing more or less. If they inflict their Farm Dust Pollution NOX from Agriculture crap on the Vegetable & Grape growers, driving up the prices, even the Prius owners will pull their heads out of their collective butts.
Since I work for an environmental equipment manufacturer, our reps and sales force closely monitor prospective regulations that are coming into play or being discussed. Even though my companies and our competition will make more money from stricter regulations, we are shaking our heads, guess Industry Wide Ethics has something to do with it.
I am old enough to know what Down Town Chicago, Detroit, and Gary Indianan was like when I was a child, my eyes would burn from the exhaust coming out of the gasoline powered cars. No one in their right mind would want to go back to that, but we need common sense that CARB has demonstrated they are lacking in.
Having been to San Jose, CA last week and breathed the air in the basin, the worst part was walking into my Hotel Room and having to have my nose shocked by the perfume in the cleaner they used. Even by the San Jose waste Water Treatment Plant standards (they do a great job) my clean Hotel room should have been an EPA super fund site just from the perfume in the cleaners used. Where in hell do you draw the line?

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 Post subject: Re: CARB NOT busted
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:23 am 
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California air pollution data by air basin:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/aqd/almanac/alman ... hap409.pdf


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