Bad engine noise?

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:37 pm

The bearings are very much under pressure, and leaving the engine to idle properly when cold (don't just start it at instantly drive off while it sounds like it is running on 3 cylinders) should mean that the main bearings are lubricated properly.

As for the top ends, what I have seen with these motors is that there aren't ANY examples of heavy deposits or sludge with the oils that people are running. The top of the head has a heavy layer of oil (good!) and when I wipe it down and clean things, other than the oil being filthy from the soot, it isn't caramelized or otherwise goopy - just dark.

The 5W-40 Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck or Shell Rotella T6 are both equivalent oils in my opinion, and I use them in my own TDI without bothering to check anything other than the amount I'm putting in. I am starting to suspect that my second engine failure may have been due to the use of the Rislone zinc additive, and the attendant removal of a quart of that Mobil 1 oil.

These engines DO NOT NEED TO BE FLUSHED, the oil is not depositing or clogging on anything that I have seen. Just drain, refill with a quality DIESEL RATED synthetic 5W-40 or 0W40 (based on climate), and drive on. If you are living in International Falls or Canada, you probably want to use the 0W-40... Just about everyone else should be fine and froggy with the 5W, especially if you plug the thing in.

International Falls should probably plug them in all the time, even in July.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:24 pm

When you see a W on a viscosity rating it means that this oil viscosity has been tested at a Colder temperature. The numbers without the W are all tested at 210° F or 100° C which is considered an approximation of engine operating temperature. In other words, a SAE 30 motor oil is the same viscosity as a 10w-30 or 5W-30 at 210° (100° C). The difference is when the viscosity is tested at a much colder temperature. For example, a 5W-30 motor oil performs like a SAE 5 motor oil would perform at the cold temperature specified, but still has the SAE 30 viscosity at 210° F (100° C) which is engine operating temperature. This allows the engine to get quick oil flow when it is started cold verses dry running until lubricant either warms up sufficiently or is finally forced through the engine oil system. The advantages of a low W viscosity number is obvious. The quicker the oil flows cold, the less dry running. Less dry running means much less engine wear.

thermorex · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:30 am

lacabrera wrote:

Mountainman wrote:

I know most of this is old hat, but all this oil pressure talk has me tempted to email Garrett and see what they say about their turbos (5w or 0w) since they are a common point of failure. I'd also like to gain the 1mpg from using the lighter oil, but I'm afraid that the turbo bearing wouldn't like the thinner layer of oil. Other than the turbo, I haven't seen any evidence that the zero weight would hurt the other bearings, as they seem to hold up.

Lacabrera: Does the 0/5 weight argument take place in Europe also, and do you all mostly use zero weight?

I personally use 5W-30 fully synthetic. This is the recommended oil for the newer version of the 2.8 fitted to JK's. My personal view is its not so much the oil weight but more frequent oil changes.
The purpose of using a 0 weight oil has its benefits on cold engine start up especially in cold climates. The oil pump can circulate the oil much easier and faster because its thinner. It all depends on were you live, if the cars outside in winter with many cold starts than I would use a 0w oil. If you live in a hot climate than a thicker oil maybe as high as 10w.
Draw back with 0w is in hot climates and hard driving lots of high turbo boost the oil will become very thin and oil pressure may drop off. Its getting a happy medium and I personally would stick with 5w.

Our 0w40 has more viscosity at cold (thicker) that your 5w30. All 40 weight oils are more viscous than 30 weight oil, cold or hot. The "0" or "5" is a bit misleading as it usually is related to the weight of the oil, being more of a factor for the specific oil weight, so theoretically a 5w30 is thinner at both cold and hot than a 0w40 which is a bit thinner (at cold only) than a 5w40. The best comparison is looking at how many cSt the oil has at various temps from manufacturer data sheet. Stick with your oil in my opinion, unless you use the jeep as a heavy duty truck and warm up the oil frequently over 240F.

thermorex · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:42 am

lacabrera wrote:

When you see a W on a viscosity rating it means that this oil viscosity has been tested at a Colder temperature. The numbers without the W are all tested at 210° F or 100° C which is considered an approximation of engine operating temperature. In other words, a SAE 30 motor oil is the same viscosity as a 10w-30 or 5W-30 at 210° (100° C). The difference is when the viscosity is tested at a much colder temperature. For example, a 5W-30 motor oil performs like a SAE 5 motor oil would perform at the cold temperature specified, but still has the SAE 30 viscosity at 210° F (100° C) which is engine operating temperature. This allows the engine to get quick oil flow when it is started cold verses dry running until lubricant either warms up sufficiently or is finally forced through the engine oil system. The advantages of a low W viscosity number is obvious. The quicker the oil flows cold, the less dry running. Less dry running means much less engine wear.

That is correct 100% (except 100C is 212F

). I'd add that flow and pressure keeps the engine healthy, not only pressure, as it seems some here think. Lower pressure translates (with a good oil pump) in more flow. More flow lubes and also cools better, which is a good thing.

thermorex · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:20 am

Lacabrera, btw just thought to mention, I had an issue with cp3 bearing and I replaced it, it was chirping when engine got hot, or to say it better, when the components outside of the engine got hot. Just fyi, it can happen. Regarding vacuum pump, I'm not sure why that can go bad as it's entirely lubed by engine oil, correct?

lacabrera · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:30 pm

thermorex wrote:

Lacabrera, btw just thought to mention, I had an issue with cp3 bearing and I replaced it, it was chirping when engine got hot, or to say it better, when the components outside of the engine got hot. Just fyi, it can happen. Regarding vacuum pump, I'm not sure why that can go bad as it's entirely lubed by engine oil, correct?

Hi the CP3 pump is lubricated by the fuel flowing through it not engine oil? Lots of guys here run a small amount of 2 stroke engine oil to every fuel fill up to help lubricate it.
The 5w-30 is thinner at operating temperature so will circulate better? BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen all recommend 5w-30 personally I don't think there is much between them. change oil and filter every 3 or 4 thousand miles if you wont good service life.
Poor oil pressure generally means worn engine/ bearings because the pump can push the oil easier and will not build up pressure.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:19 pm

geordi wrote:

Ok, question - Where is the oil pump in the engine, and what did you have to remove to get it out? I thought the oil pump was in the pan, I know the "flying saucer" pickup is in the bottom of the oil pan. Was there any way to inspect the crankshaft / bearings while you had the oil pump out?

This could be beneficial to anyone that may have a bottom end problem in the future. At the moment, I know of zero ways to inspect or replace the bearings without pulling the whole block.

Here's a pic of the oil and vacuum pump. The engine is upside down in the picture, and I can't remember for sure which is which.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:18 pm

Mike92104 wrote:

geordi wrote:

Ok, question - Where is the oil pump in the engine, and what did you have to remove to get it out? I thought the oil pump was in the pan, I know the "flying saucer" pickup is in the bottom of the oil pan. Was there any way to inspect the crankshaft / bearings while you had the oil pump out?

This could be beneficial to anyone that may have a bottom end problem in the future. At the moment, I know of zero ways to inspect or replace the bearings without pulling the whole block.

Here's a pic of the oil and vacuum pump. The engine is upside down in the picture, and I can't remember for sure which is which.

The one that says Bosch is the vacuum pump. What are the red marks for? No timing necessary for either?

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:20 pm

lacabrera wrote:

Mike92104 wrote:

geordi wrote:

Ok, question - Where is the oil pump in the engine, and what did you have to remove to get it out? I thought the oil pump was in the pan, I know the "flying saucer" pickup is in the bottom of the oil pan. Was there any way to inspect the crankshaft / bearings while you had the oil pump out?

This could be beneficial to anyone that may have a bottom end problem in the future. At the moment, I know of zero ways to inspect or replace the bearings without pulling the whole block.

Here's a pic of the oil and vacuum pump. The engine is upside down in the picture, and I can't remember for sure which is which.

The one that says Bosch is the vacuum pump. What are the red marks for? No timing necessary for either?

Purely habit on making the marks as I was disassembling the engine. No timing necessary.

Mike

thermorex · **Posted:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:37 pm

lacabrera wrote:

thermorex wrote:

Lacabrera, btw just thought to mention, I had an issue with cp3 bearing and I replaced it, it was chirping when engine got hot, or to say it better, when the components outside of the engine got hot. Just fyi, it can happen. Regarding vacuum pump, I'm not sure why that can go bad as it's entirely lubed by engine oil, correct?

Hi the CP3 pump is lubricated by the fuel flowing through it not engine oil? Lots of guys here run a small amount of 2 stroke engine oil to every fuel fill up to help lubricate it.
The 5w-30 is thinner at operating temperature so will circulate better? BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen all recommend 5w-30 personally I don't think there is much between them. change oil and filter every 3 or 4 thousand miles if you wont good service life.
Poor oil pressure generally means worn engine/ bearings because the pump can push the oil easier and will not build up pressure.

You are correct regarding lubing of cp3 pump, however, the bearing in it is sealed and as I know it is not lubricated by anything. I also use 2 cycle oil myself as an additive for the diesel. I may chop up my old cp3 and post some pics of the internals.

Regarding oil, I believe Chrysler recommended Mobil 1 0w40 since in us, at that time, we may not have had a better diesel oil, even though I know for sure shell rotella had diesel synthetic oil, not sure why they did not recommend a dedicated diesel oil. I I one use the 0w40 with no issue, but I use the jeep "light duty", barely tow 2000 lbs few times a year for few miles... I would use a diesel 5w30 oil tomorrow if it would be easily accessible in the stores, plus I have quite a stash of 0w40 from when it was on sale. I also have the 5w40 diesel truck Mobil 1 that I may use in the summer. I'll definitely try getting the amsoil diesel 5w30 oil that jrsavoie uses.

Under normal wear and tear, with the manufacturer recommended oil, low pressure is definitely a sign of bad bearings, rings, pump etc, but some folks here in the forum consider an under 20 psi pressure at idle under normal operating engine temperature a reason to panic, which is not necessarily a reason to get alarmed.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:07 am

It would be interesting to see the internals of the CP3. Maybe they designed the bearings to be a sealed unit because of the lack of lubrication from modern diesel fuels. I am no expert with high pressure diesel fuel pumps but I do understand that most modern versions, used for common rail do use the fuel for lubrication. Owners that have accidently put petrol(gas) instead of diesel have run the risk of damaging pump seals/ bearings due to lack of lubrication.
As for low oil pressure @ idle, I would try replacing the oil pump before stripping down the engine unless of course the motor is making serious bottom end noise. The oil pump is not filtered in the same way as the rest of the motor. Oil is picked up from the oil pan with the oil pump and than feed through the oil filter. Any sediment/harmful particles suspended in the oil will pass through the pump. The pick up pipe in the oil pan has a filter but damaging particles could pass through. As for oil pressure a happy medium is 10psi for every 1000rpm. So @ 750rpm could be as low as 7.5psi. I seem to remember that the ECU is set for 7psi to turn on the oil light. Maybe some one could confirm this? Personally I would like to see 15psi as minimum.
I am surprised that 5w-30 not easily obtainable in the US. Maybe its due to the extreme temperatures from Alaska and California and the 0w-40 or 5w-40 works ok in both states.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:18 am

I've never seen less than 15psi at idle, with very hot 5W-40 oil. 2000 rpm is 35 ±3psi depending on oil temp.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:03 pm

Thermorex, I'm not suggesting that 18psi at idle is insufficient pressure for protecting the motor.

What I am suggesting, is that I don't know whether it is good or bad, just that I personally would be happier if there was more, because that would suggest that the pump is attempting to push more oil than the system can flow, creating the backup and pressure. There are also oil spray jets that require pressure to work, cooling the underside of the pistons and pumping up the hydraulic lifters.

My engine showed 18psi at idle when hot, and between 25-30 (Don't recall the exact pressures) when driving. But my engine also failed the bottom end, most likely from poor lubrication that damaged the main bearings. I have personally seen those passages on the bottom of the rods, and they are VERY small. Maybe the oil pressure has nothing to do with it, and if the other members that are running gauges are seeing similar pressures... Then I will be happy to know that, and I'll shut up about it.

I still don't have a solid answer why the second engine failed, and that is the primary thing that concerns me about these engines. Most of the rest of the problems have been addressed, except this one.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:29 pm

geordi wrote:

Thermorex, I'm not suggesting that 18psi at idle is insufficient pressure for protecting the motor.

What I am suggesting, is that I don't know whether it is good or bad, just that I personally would be happier if there was more, because that would suggest that the pump is attempting to push more oil than the system can flow, creating the backup and pressure. There are also oil spray jets that require pressure to work, cooling the underside of the pistons and pumping up the hydraulic lifters.

My engine showed 18psi at idle when hot, and between 25-30 (Don't recall the exact pressures) when driving. But my engine also failed the bottom end, most likely from poor lubrication that damaged the main bearings. I have personally seen those passages on the bottom of the rods, and they are VERY small. Maybe the oil pressure has nothing to do with it, and if the other members that are running gauges are seeing similar pressures... Then I will be happy to know that, and I'll shut up about it.

I still don't have a solid answer why the second engine failed, and that is the primary thing that concerns me about these engines. Most of the rest of the problems have been addressed, except this one.

geordi have you had 2 major engines failed? Did you have a poor oil pressure before they decided self destructed? I remember reading on the forum some time back about oil running down from the turbo, and I read that someone said this was common. That little turbo takes a lot of oil and can starve the engine especially when the turbo bearing is worn. Just asking because that could be the sole problem for major engine problems. Did you fit your old turbo to your replacement engine.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:09 pm

Yup, two engines failed at the bottom end, and exited via unapproved methods.

Engine #1, the failure was fairly conclusive as to what happened. Very cold overnight, less than 20 degrees, and 32 when I started the engine. It was not plugged in. My driveway ends in a 50mph road, so no time to let it properly warm up either. Less than 2 miles later, the turbo shaft seized violently from lack of lubrication, and the oil began pumping (rapidly) into the exhaust. I did not recognize what had happened, I thought it had popped the boost hose again - it had done that several times recently - and let it coast for about 25-30 seconds while I got to a place where I could stop safely.

There was nothing showing on the dipstick at that point, and there was a tapping that I thought was a lifter / rocker at the time. I have since learned better.

I replaced the turbo with a brand new unit (that I later discovered had a manufacturing defect in the VNT vanes) and refilled the oil. After about 15-20 minutes of idling, the tapping went away, and I thought maybe it was being lubricated again properly. Less than 10 miles later on the test drive, the engine began violently shaking and banging. This was the #1 rod bashing the piston and cylinder liner to shrapnel, and before I could shut it off, it managed to invert and punched out the oil pan. That was the end of engine #1. Nobody wanted to rebuild it, and Chrysler very nicely had voided my warranty about 2 months earlier at Christmas, in preparation for their bankruptcy. All this happened at about 65k miles.

I purchased a used engine with about the same mileage on it from another member, and after the debacle of getting it shipped to me from Texas, had it installed with the turbo it came with.

At approximately 132k miles, in the dead of summer, it started tapping loudly after an "Italian Tune up" driving up the steep bridge in Savannah Ga. I managed to get it back home, and proceeded to tear it down multiple times to discover exactly nothing. The engine finally showed itself to me by ejecting the #4 rod end through the side behind where the EGR valve had been mounted (I removed it just days prior during the teardowns) and the end of the rod looks immaculate. No scoring or denting, it looks like the rod bolts just backed out, possibly due to the bearings melting away for unknown reasons.

I had the oil pressure gauge on this engine #2, and while I had replaced the turbo (that failed non-catastrophically about 10k miles earlier) there was never any loss of oil OR oil pressure. I am still at a loss why this engine failed. That is why my signature reads the way it does.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:57 pm

geordi wrote:

At approximately 132k miles, in the dead of summer, it started tapping loudly after an "Italian Tune up" driving up the steep bridge in Savannah Ga. I managed to get it back home, and proceeded to tear it down multiple times to discover exactly nothing. The engine finally showed itself to me by ejecting the #4 rod end through the side behind where the EGR valve had been mounted (I removed it just days prior during the teardowns) and the end of the rod looks immaculate. No scoring or denting, it looks like the rod bolts just backed out, possibly due to the bearings melting away for unknown reasons.

What all did you tear down to inspect? Did you remove any of the rod bolts?

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:32 am

I didn't tear down any of the bottom end, the tapping sounded like it was coming entirely from the top end, and there isn't any way to check the bottom without removing the entire engine from the body. I have never actually done that on any vehicle.

The engine is most likely still sitting exactly the way it was in the minutes after ejecting the rod - I sold it as-is and the new owner is a member here that eventually plans to rebuild it.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:39 am

geordi wrote:

I didn't tear down any of the bottom end, the tapping sounded like it was coming entirely from the top end, and there isn't any way to check the bottom without removing the entire engine from the body. I have never actually done that on any vehicle.

The engine is most likely still sitting exactly the way it was in the minutes after ejecting the rod - I sold it as-is and the new owner is a member here that eventually plans to rebuild it.

Sounds like you have been very unlucky. I would say with the first engine was lack of oil or pressure due to the turbo. But the second??
Do you know if its possible to remove the oil pan with the engine in the car? I have time to kill and thinking of removing it and inspecting the piston rod bearings/ shells for damage and replace them if the crank journals are all ok. Just thinking out load I wonder if its possible the rod bolts loosen off over time.

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:09 am

geordi wrote:

Thermorex, I'm not suggesting that 18psi at idle is insufficient pressure for protecting the motor.

What I am suggesting, is that I don't know whether it is good or bad, just that I personally would be happier if there was more, because that would suggest that the pump is attempting to push more oil than the system can flow, creating the backup and pressure. There are also oil spray jets that require pressure to work, cooling the underside of the pistons and pumping up the hydraulic lifters.

My engine showed 18psi at idle when hot, and between 25-30 (Don't recall the exact pressures) when driving. But my engine also failed the bottom end, most likely from poor lubrication that damaged the main bearings. I have personally seen those passages on the bottom of the rods, and they are VERY small. Maybe the oil pressure has nothing to do with it, and if the other members that are running gauges are seeing similar pressures... Then I will be happy to know that, and I'll shut up about it.

I still don't have a solid answer why the second engine failed, and that is the primary thing that concerns me about these engines. Most of the rest of the problems have been addressed, except this one.

Geordi, no need to shut up about anything, lol. I just asked because I was curious if you have a reason on why you'd like more oil pressure. As Lacabrera said, "conventional wisdom" recommends 10psi/1000 rpm. As thinner the oil gets, the pressure decreases but the flow of oil increases, so the pump is moving more volume of oil at a less pressure. What nobody knows, or at least only the engineers that made the engine know, is what is the sweet spot of the pressure/temperature/flow combination for this picky engine. But, especially for thin passages, the use of a 30 weight oil makes lots of sense, as the thinner oil can get through much easier, especially when the oil is a bit colder.

On another aspect, as I know, we drive here in us way longer average 1 way than folks in Europe, so at least in theory, the engines run more time and distance warm, this may be another reason to have a thicker oil? My wife's Passat 1.8T has also 0w40'or 5w40 oil (whatever is available), and even though it's a turbo, it could use a 30 weight oil...there are plenty of them for "spark infested" turbos (I like gmctd's term). I remember back in the day when I had a gti and after an R32, Vw wanted the same 0 or 5 w40 oil. Maybe Americans are considered harder footed on the pedal than Europeans, so we get a thicker oil? Lol. I really don't get why cant we find a 5w30 diesel oil in the store...

lacabrera · **Posted:** Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:26 am

I really don't get why cant we find a 5w30 diesel oil in the store...

Are you searching for 5W30 dedicated for diesel engines? Just that on the bottles here it says suitable for diesel and petrol engines including turbo's.
Any one have the answer about removing the oil pan without removing the engine?

Bad engine noise?

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