pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big problem

Mountainman · **Posted:** Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:05 pm

Might as well since you already pulled the injectors. Crush washers are one time use.

You know, I had a clunk like this when I was assembling one the other day, but I was putting the bolts in the TC and one wasn't in very far yet, it was hitting and about gave me a heart attack. Luckily I found it without much searching, but it's tight in there.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:21 pm

toolmanmike wrote:

Well, Here is the update. The engine had a noticeable metallic clunk sound when you crank it over. I was pretty sure the timing belt skipped a tooth or something and the rockers were broken. I ordered a new timing belt kit (in the mail) and started pulling it apart. Turns out the mechanical timing is right on! No problems there the belt looks just fine. While the engine was 1/2 torn apart, I pulled the injectors just to make sure all 4 pistons were going up and down and yes, they are. By the way, the mechanical "clunk" is not noticeable now. Im going to put it all back together (with the new belt kit installed) and see what is up. I HATE trouble shooting! If I have to pull this engine back apart after I get it together, I will push it off a cliff.

Question: Should I take the top off the engine and inspect the rockers? There is a lot to take off yet to get to the rockers. Any thoughts?

You can spin the engine with the injectors out, and if you still hear the clunking, take the timing belt off and manually rotate the cams clockwise until they "settle" in a valley. Then rotate by hand two full turns to confirm no contact, then you can try it with the starter again. If no noises... Most likely you have a rocker issue.

toolmanmike · **Joined:** Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:16 am **Posts:** 15

Rockers it is! I took off the timing belt: rotated each cam by hand and found a "dead" spot in the rotation. After 2 more hours- got the intake/valve cover off and found SEVEN broken rockers! I have ordered a whole new set with a gasket and new crush washers for the injectors. What am I missing??? Someone PLEASE tell me that when I put this thing back together I won't have to touch it for 100000 miles! Im up to $1300. and 5 days.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:32 pm

Hey look on the bright side, if you were paying a dealer to do it you'd be down $3K at the end of it ans still not be sure if they had done it correctly.

Out of curiosity, you asked about turning the engine backwards.Not sure why they say this, have never done it and read much speculation but did you do this when you had it out?

papaindigo · **Posted:** Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:55 pm

If you are already in as far as replacing rockers I'd recommend spending a bit more money and replacing the OEM head bolts with ARP studs which can be done 1 at a time. Check the forum for how to or shoot a PM to geordi who is well versed on how to do the install.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:59 pm

You might be back in there if you don't do ARP head studs...

I have rotated one backwards 30 degrees or so out of necessity. Rotation was stuck on a piece of glow plug or carbon. I kept messing with it back and forth, and crunch! The piece of debris crushed, and it fired up and ran just fine. I think it was glow plug because I got a glow plug fault right after, and when I pulled the old ceramic, the tip was freshly broken. I've put 2k miles on it since, just call me lucky

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:50 pm

I've rotated them backwards too and haven't had any issues. I don't usually need to, but sometimes for adjustments.

As far as doing things while you are in this far... YES, you have several things you should be doing right now since the labor 100% overlaps and it will finish up the list of suggested mods.

ARP Studs. Don't put the cover back on without doing this, you *will* regret it.
Weeks / Sasquatch elbow kit. It eliminates what kills the rockers in the usual cases, soot contamination. It also makes the reassembly suck a lot less and increases your overall performance a bit.
Glow plugs. You are already there, and they are easily accessed *right now* so you might as well put in the Etecno 7v plugs.
Timing belt kit with water pump. Again... You are already there, and you only need to replace the front half of the water pump with the Graf pump to have the best reliability for 100k miles. You also shouldn't re-tension a used belt.

If you need assistance on any of this, send me a message, but it sounds like you are well on your way to finishing this job. Good for you.

olypopper · **Posted:** Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:11 pm

toolmanmike wrote:

Rockers it is! I took off the timing belt: rotated each cam by hand and found a "dead" spot in the rotation. After 2 more hours- got the intake/valve cover off and found SEVEN broken rockers! I have ordered a whole new set with a gasket and new crush washers for the injectors. What am I missing??? Someone PLEASE tell me that when I put this thing back together I won't have to touch it for 100000 miles! Im up to $1300. and 5 days.

What do I win for the correct guess??? :jester:

I bought my jeep in nearly the same condition as yours and after doing nearly everything that can be done, I'd highly recommend doing the head gasket and arp studs while you are there....and water pump.....and thermostat.......and glow plugs and harness......and weeks egr delete stage 1&2.........................and your wish about not touching it for 100k, wow, that's silly. These things are like a blonde mistress with big hoohoos. They seduce you in the beginning and take most of your free time and ALL of your money!

toolmanmike · **Joined:** Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:16 am **Posts:** 15

by the way, and thanks for the input from all. All seven the the broken rockers were on the intake side. None on the exhaust were broken. I thought that really weird coming from other engine types. I already had an eco tune from GD and will likely be upgrading to a "hot" since I put the euro torque converter in it already. I really just want it to start! Id be happy with not borrowing friends cars for awhile.

Im curious about the ARP studs. You say you can replace them 1 at a time? Why? does that mean you don't have to pull the head and replace the head gasket?

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:40 pm

That's right. Takes like 30 mins, and $360, and you won't have to worry about getting in there again. These things are just like the VW's that need ARP's...

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:45 pm

Yes, one at a time, the head gasket stays exactly where it is and undisturbed. The process is a little more than 30 minutes with all the prep and wrenching, but you are already there. Not doing it at this stage is wasting a perfect opportunity.

The inside rows get torqued to 130ft-lbs and the outside rows get torqued to 120. You don't need to specifically follow the pattern from my research sticky thread, but if you feel like you want to contribute your numbers, that would be appreciated. As long as you are only removing one bolt at a time and replacing with the stud then fully torquing before moving on to the next, you won't disturb the head at all.

Here is the process in a nutshell, you can ignore the ARP directions - they have approved this process as not statistically different in the resulting forces.

Remove old bolt.
Put ARP lube onto the narrow threads of the stud, get some inside the threads of the nut, and on the face of the nut and both sides of the washer.
You don't have to goop it up as it will spread really thin, but you want an even coating to do the work.
Assemble the washer under the nut and onto the stud, with the top flush with the end of the stud when threaded on.
Thread the assembled stud into the block with a 5mm hex (allen) driver, until it is finger tight. You don't need any real pressure here, just snug.
Now torque the nut to 130 or 120 depending on location, and you are ready to move onto the next one. You do not need to torque in stages or to remove and re-torque. One and done is approved by ARP.

Move on to the next bolt and repeat the process.

turblediesel · **Posted:** Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:24 am

On not turning the engine backwards... I wondered if the vacuum pump vanes might be able to fall out if worn down.

Which begs the question: How long do they last?

The tensioner/belt skip makes sense too. Hadn't thought of that.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:41 am

toolmanmike wrote:

Ok, I had a rear main seal leaking, so I pulled the engine to replace it and put a new "euro" torque converter in while I had it out. I did NOT crack open the engine, timing, oil pan, or any other part of the engine because it only has 65K mi. on it. I replaced everything back into the Jeep- hooked up the huge amount of sensors and the thing fired right up and idled just great! I drove it about a mi and as soon as I put my foot into it- the engine had a conniption! Sounded like the exhaust came loose and the engine started bucking. I pulled off the side of the road and shut it down because it had a really bad shudder and knocking sound. I could then not start the vehicle and it sounds like a loud knock when you turn it over.

I have towed it home and scanned the ODBII. Code 340 "camshaft sensor circuit error" I cleared the codes, unplugged the sensor as well as the crank sensor and replugged (nothing wrong there). still has a knock and won't start. I could start replacing sensors but everything worked when the engine came out. Im baffled by the knock. Any input?

toolman

Do you have any idea what caused the seven rockers to break? I cannot see any reason for it, if it was running fine until you replaced the rear crankshaft seal. The only way rockers can snap is either a broken timing belt or one of the cam sprockets had moved on the cam shaft.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:08 am

Just thinking out loud, any one think its possible to damage the camshaft sensor tipping back the engine to remove the transmission enough to cause the camshaft to not rotate properly and cause more strain on the cam sprocket bolt?

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:12 pm

turblediesel wrote:

On not turning the engine backwards... I wondered if the vacuum pump vanes might be able to fall out if worn down.

Which begs the question: How long do they last?

The tensioner/belt skip makes sense too. Hadn't thought of that.

I've only heard of one failure on the vacuum pumps. Many 200k + mile CRDs running just fine on their original pump.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:24 pm

lacabrera wrote:

Just thinking out loud, any one think its possible to damage the camshaft sensor tipping back the engine to remove the transmission enough to cause the camshaft to not rotate properly and cause more strain on the cam sprocket bolt?

the OP reported that the timing was right on :dizzy:

I wonder if the OP put more load on the already old rockers than he had before while testing out the new hook-up of the upgraded TC? Was the engine cold and pumping thick oil to the rocker bearings that had been sitting/draining of oil for a good period of time?
I bet that engine had long oil change intervals, or a faulty EGR that dumped more soot than normal, or driving style caused more soot (lots of short trips).

-Lacabrera You hear of many vacuum pump failures over there in the land of many CRDs?

I think we can now assume that if an engine has 65k miles with EGR, that the rockers might be toast... Might as well get in there and replace them and ARP the head while the HG is still in good shape anyhow (hopefully).

lacabrera · **Posted:** Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:08 pm

Mountainman wrote:

lacabrera wrote:

Just thinking out loud, any one think its possible to damage the camshaft sensor tipping back the engine to remove the transmission enough to cause the camshaft to not rotate properly and cause more strain on the cam sprocket bolt?

the OP reported that the timing was right on :dizzy:

I wonder if the OP put more load on the already old rockers than he had before while testing out the new hook-up of the upgraded TC? Was the engine cold and pumping thick oil to the rocker bearings that had been sitting/draining of oil for a good period of time?
I bet that engine had long oil change intervals, or a faulty EGR that dumped more soot than normal, or driving style caused more soot (lots of short trips).

-Lacabrera You hear of many vacuum pump failures over there in the land of many CRDs?

I think we can now assume that if an engine has 65k miles with EGR, that the rockers might be toast... Might as well get in there and replace them and ARP the head while the HG is still in good shape anyhow (hopefully).

No reports of failed vacuum pumps as far as I am aware. I checked mine when I rebuilt my motor and was as good as new. There is nothing in there to go wrong.Turning the motor backwards several times would not effect the vacuum pump. The 3 sliding metal shutters (don't know the correct name) would have to be well worn to drop out of there holders and if they did you would just get no vacuum and a front end rattle.

toolmanmike · **Joined:** Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:16 am **Posts:** 15

Well, History here. I bought the liberty with 45k on it2 years ago. I put a Green Diesel eco tune in it 2 days after I bought it. I always change my oil regularly and take good care of the car. It was owned by a municipality before me so I assume oil was done by there mechanics and pretty regularly but you never know. When I put the new torque converter in, i started the vehicle and let it run for 20 min just to check that no codes came up. The next day, I started the truck and let it warm up for 2-3 min then off I went. NO hot dogging, no hard driving. Only made it 2 miles from my house and then bam! towed it from there.

My thoughts are that perhaps 2 were broken already and the car still started and ran ok then when another broke loose and caused major vibrations the rest let loose. Just seems odd to me that all but 1 intake broke and none of the exhaust are cracked. The timing is on! So unless the belt skipped and then skipped back??? No way.

olypopper · **Posted:** Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:18 pm

How does your water pump look? Tensioner? Your engine got out of time, period. There is no other explanation.

Do you have it back together yet? If so, how is it running?

dirtmover · **Posted:** Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:41 pm

toolmanmike wrote:

It was owned by a municipality before me so I assume oil was done by there mechanics and pretty regularly but you never know.

Agreed on the frequency but they may not have paid too much attention to the spec instead using whatever they use for their other vehicles.

There's a general consensus among many of the members here that incorrect viscosity or use of an oil not containing the the appropriate additive package for diesel vehicles may result in premature rocker wear and eventual failure.

Besides being broken do you see any abnormal wear?

pulled the CRD out and put it back- started then big problem

Who is online