Thermostat Bracket Needed

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

WWDiesel wrote:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

The problem with the O.E. thermostat in North America is we have the very significant extra problem of the EPA mandated low opening temperature of the thermostat valve to meet their NOx standards. The cowardly and selfish actions by vehicle manufacturers to knuckle under all of the ridiculous EPA standards - not just NOX - so they can look "green" AND charge us consumers a ton of money on the increased repair costs completes the trifecta of events that have led us to having so many problems with the Liberty CRD in North America. Keep in mind that this is for vehicles we spent EXTRA money on in the first place to be fuel efficient and green ourselves.

So does this mean that higher temperature OEM thermostats are available elsewhere in the 2.8 CRD world or it it a one size fits all type of thing???? :roll:

Higher temperature O.E. thermostat assemblies do indeed exist. They all have the same housing, just different temperature thermostat valves inside. I believe they have 90 degree Celsius valves in most other markets around the world. HOWEVER, that is still not an ideal temperature... 95 degree Celsius valves would be better. Remember that other markets around the world also have to comply with pollution control regulations. They simply are not as strict as those of the EPA.

You also still have the problem of the proprietary design. The whole thing has to be replaced when it malfunctions, rather than just the valve in a serviceable thermostat assembly design.

Good luck trying to get a European thermostat assembly over here... it is unlikely a dealer can sell it to you. If you managed to get someone to purchase it for you or go through a third party parts supplier the prices can be astronomical. In Germany, for example, the thermostat assembly for the V.M. Motori A428 engine is 436.24 Euros before the Value Added Tax, (VAT). This equates to $518.20 USD, before taxes and before shipping. It is therefore pointless to try and get any when a Model 001 is $495.00 USD including shipping.

If it can be done, then why hasn't I.D. Parts managed to secure any?

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:32 am

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

WWDiesel wrote:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

The problem with the O.E. thermostat in North America is we have the very significant extra problem of the EPA mandated low opening temperature of the thermostat valve to meet their NOx standards. The cowardly and selfish actions by vehicle manufacturers to knuckle under all of the ridiculous EPA standards - not just NOX - so they can look "green" AND charge us consumers a ton of money on the increased repair costs completes the trifecta of events that have led us to having so many problems with the Liberty CRD in North America. Keep in mind that this is for vehicles we spent EXTRA money on in the first place to be fuel efficient and green ourselves.

So does this mean that higher temperature OEM thermostats are available elsewhere in the 2.8 CRD world or it it a one size fits all type of thing???? :roll:

Higher temperature O.E. thermostat assemblies do indeed exist. They all have the same housing, just different temperature thermostat valves inside. I believe they have 90 degree Celsius valves in most other markets around the world. HOWEVER, that is still not an ideal temperature... 95 degree Celsius valves would be better. Remember that other markets around the world also have to comply with pollution control regulations. They simply are not as strict as those of the EPA.

You also still have the problem of the proprietary design. The whole thing has to be replaced when it malfunctions, rather than just the valve in a serviceable thermostat assembly design.

Good luck trying to get a European thermostat assembly over here... it is unlikely a dealer can sell it to you. If you managed to get someone to purchase it for you or go through a third party parts supplier the prices can be astronomical. In Germany, for example, the thermostat assembly for the V.M. Motori A428 engine is 436.24 Euros before the Value Added Tax, (VAT). This equates to $518.20 USD, before taxes and before shipping. It is therefore pointless to try and get any when a Model 001 is $495.00 USD including shipping.

If it can be done, then why hasn't I.D. Parts managed to secure any?

VMM A428 thermostats are available domestically in the $80 range.
They do not fit the R428 engine.
The cooling system is one of the main things they completely revamped.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

"VMM A428 thermostats are available domestically in the $80 range.
They do not fit the R428 engine.
The cooling system is one of the main things they completely revamped."

I am fully aware of all of this GordnadoCRD. I have at least three new A428 thermostat assemblies myself for development of the Model 002, if I can get a test vehicle to use.

You are missing the point. The U.S. version of the O.E. A428 engine thermostat assembly you are posting about has a valve in it that opens up at 80 degrees Celsius, the exact same ridiculously low opening temperature as that of the O.E. assembly in the R428 engine that resides in the Liberty CRD. So the price of the North American market O.E. A428 thermostat assembly is irrelevant. I am trying to point out that the more desirable higher temperature European version of that assembly is over 5 times as high.

You are correct that the previous generation R428 engine has a completely different design thermostat assembly. I am also trying to point out that the European version of the R428 engine O.E. thermostat assembly would also likely be priced extremely high, just like that of the European version of the O.E. thermostat assembly in the A428 engine. The prices I have seen over there are probably due to the very high taxes and business costs European companies have to deal with.

The European, South African, Australian and other overseas market O.E. thermostat assemblies are a LITTLE more desirable because they have hotter thermostat valves in them, but they are quite difficult to obtain. Even if you can get then, you still have the proprietary design issue to deal with, and you are likely going to have a heart attack when you see the prices you will have to pay for one. :shock:

You factor all of these issues that you would have to deal with, and the Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 becomes a bargain by comparison. It is a superior, serviceable design utilizing vastly higher quality materials and manufacturing techniques that flows more engine coolant. Its a no-brainer, people. :wink:

joelukex4 · **Joined:** Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:54 pm **Posts:** 386

"Higher temperature O.E. thermostat assemblies do indeed exist. They all have the same housing, just different temperature thermostat valves inside. I believe they have 90 degree Celsius valves in most other markets around the world. HOWEVER, that is still not an ideal temperature... 95 degree Celsius valves would be better. Remember that other markets around the world also have to comply with pollution control regulations. They simply are not as strict as those of the EPA."

"The problem with the O.E. thermostat in North America is we have the very significant extra problem of the EPA mandated low opening temperature of the thermostat valve to meet their NOx standards."

Are we then to assume that the HDS Model 001 is not EPA compliant and is that stated in your advertising? Has this been tested for NOx emissions when in use? Do we need to replace the thermostat valve with a 80C opening unit to be compliant?

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

joelukex4 wrote:

"Higher temperature O.E. thermostat assemblies do indeed exist. They all have the same housing, just different temperature thermostat valves inside. I believe they have 90 degree Celsius valves in most other markets around the world. HOWEVER, that is still not an ideal temperature... 95 degree Celsius valves would be better. Remember that other markets around the world also have to comply with pollution control regulations. They simply are not as strict as those of the EPA."

"The problem with the O.E. thermostat in North America is we have the very significant extra problem of the EPA mandated low opening temperature of the thermostat valve to meet their NOx standards."

Are we then to assume that the HDS Model 001 is not EPA compliant and is that stated in your advertising? Has this been tested for NOx emissions when in use? Do we need to replace the thermostat valve with a 80C opening unit to be compliant?

In all likelihood, yes. But the design of the Model 001 allows you to do that. 180 degree Fahrenheit, (82 degree Celsius) Hemi thermostat valves do exist.

1) MISHIMOTO PART # MMTS-JED-06L
2) JET PART # 10183
3) DURALAST PART # 41680

Stant themselves make a 190 degree thermostat valve... its number is 48799. Prices for the valves are a little higher than the 203 degree valve I recommend due to the fact that significantly smaller production runs for the lower temperature valves are done as they are for "High Performance" and "Off Road" applications of the Hemi engines. The 203 degree valve is the O.E. temperature replacement for the Hemi engines.

The 180 degree thermostat valves are close enough to the O.E. 176 degree opening temperature that there would be a negligible effect on emissions.

I am curious, though, joelukex4... since when have you or any other CRD owning member of LOSTJEEPS.com been concerned about meeting EPA regulations? I can't recall any CRD LOSTJEEPS member being concerned about passing an emissions test. Serious question; not being sarcastic here.

Nobody seems concerned with this when they install a Weeks Intake elbow.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:17 pm

If anyone is interested in testing the "European thermostats are hotter" theory, here is one from Greece:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/272746077853

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:12 pm

Interesting. They are a bit scanty on details, no?

QRParts. Never heard of em. Crown in another box?
PROVEN? Crown yet again?
Martins Auto Parts? No Country of Origin... What's going on here?

This is such a small market, it's hard to believe someone's trying to break into it on price point rather than quality.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:02 am

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

since when have you or any other CRD owning member of LOSTJEEPS.com been concerned about meeting EPA regulations? Serious question; not being sarcastic here.

Why would anyone even care about a stupid EPA rule that does nothing to help diesel engines except make it less efficient and pollute more?????? :juggle:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

GordnadoCRD wrote:

Interesting. They are a bit scanty on details, no?

QRParts. Never heard of em. Crown in another box?
PROVEN? Crown yet again?
Martins Auto Parts? No Country of Origin... What's going on here?

This is such a small market, it's hard to believe someone's trying to break into it on price point rather than quality.

Yes, they are scanty on the details... virtually everything is more expensive in Europe than in the U.S., so if you happen to find something cheaper you really have to wonder about its origins.

And the free international shipping? Having done overseas shipping myself I would really wonder who the seller is having intimate relations with in order to be able to pull that off. I call B.S. on that.

About the only thing I would disagree with you on is that the market for the V.M. Motori R425 and R428 engines outside of North America is not that small. But even with a larger market the markups a retailer must make in order to survive would lead me to conclude that these are not genuine Mopar parts made by Behr Italia.

I also need to point out that, although all of these thermostat assemblies will bolt onto the R425 and R428 engines, not all of them will fit the hoses of our Liberty CRDs here in North America because the hose barbs can be of different sizes. In one version a hose barb is missing entirely.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

WWDiesel wrote:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

since when have you or any other CRD owning member of LOSTJEEPS.com been concerned about meeting EPA regulations? Serious question; not being sarcastic here.

Why would anyone even care about a stupid EPA rule that does nothing to help diesel engines except make it less efficient and pollute more?????? :juggle:

EXACTLY my point WWDiesel. You and I are definitely on the same page here. :mrgreen:

For the record, absolutely nothing irritates me more than the following...

1) A person, an entity, an organization, a business, or a government agency that has ideas, ideology, policy or products that claim to be of some benefit to mankind or society, and manages to get said ideas, ideology, policy or products accepted by the unsuspecting and/or gullible public or the consumer. This is generally accomplished with a combination of smooth-talking spokespeople or politicians spouting reasonable-sounding statistics and backed by studies conducted by "experts", upselling the "benefits" and downplaying the costs, and fear-mongering.

2) Said ideas, ideology, policy or product delivers little or nothing on its promises, and can even be counter-productive. Meanwhile, the costs of these same flawed ideas, ideology, policy or products are borne by the public or the consumer has bought into them, and has to pay in lost freedoms and/or paying out large sums of money, (additional taxes when regarding government policy, and money required for repair or replacement of flawed or cheaply built consumer products).

I'll get off my soapbox now...

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:21 am

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

EXACTLY my point WWDiesel. You and I are definitely on the same page here. :mrgreen:

For the record, absolutely nothing irritates me more than the following...

1) A person, an entity, an organization, a business, or a government agency that has ideas, ideology, policy or products that claim to be of some benefit to mankind or society, and manages to get said ideas, ideology, policy or products accepted by the unsuspecting and/or gullible public or the consumer. This is generally accomplished with a combination of smooth-talking spokespeople or politicians spouting reasonable-sounding statistics and backed by studies conducted by "experts", upselling the "benefits" and downplaying the costs, and fear-mongering.

2) Said ideas, ideology, policy or product delivers little or nothing on its promises, and can even be counter-productive. Meanwhile, the costs of these same flawed ideas, ideology, policy or products are borne by the public or the consumer has bought into them, and has to pay in lost freedoms and/or paying out large sums of money, (additional taxes when regarding government policy, and money required for repair or replacement of flawed or cheaply built consumer products).

I'll get off my soapbox now...

Very well said sir!!!
I have a terrible disdain and fevered animosity for any organization, group, or entity that can force by law or regulations their values or beliefs on a general populace in the guise of the so called being good for everyone in a free society!!! :furious:

I'll get off my soapbox now...Back to Jeeps!

krautastic · **Joined:** Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:52 pm **Posts:** 33

joelukex4 wrote:

Are we then to assume that the HDS Model 001 is not EPA compliant and is that stated in your advertising? Has this been tested for NOx emissions when in use? Do we need to replace the thermostat valve with a 80C opening unit to be compliant?

Lol. All this talk about deleting and blocking off EGR's and provents and bla bla, but a little more nox from running at a more optimal burn temperature for diesel is all of a sudden the kicker. It all depends on where you get your emissions done. When they do emissions here, they are looking at percentage of visible soot and checking for emissions equipment functionality/presence visually and check engine light.

joelukex4 · **Joined:** Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:54 pm **Posts:** 386

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

joelukex4 wrote:

"Higher temperature O.E. thermostat assemblies do indeed exist. They all have the same housing, just different temperature thermostat valves inside. I believe they have 90 degree Celsius valves in most other markets around the world. HOWEVER, that is still not an ideal temperature... 95 degree Celsius valves would be better. Remember that other markets around the world also have to comply with pollution control regulations. They simply are not as strict as those of the EPA."

"The problem with the O.E. thermostat in North America is we have the very significant extra problem of the EPA mandated low opening temperature of the thermostat valve to meet their NOx standards."

Are we then to assume that the HDS Model 001 is not EPA compliant and is that stated in your advertising? Has this been tested for NOx emissions when in use? Do we need to replace the thermostat valve with a 80C opening unit to be compliant?

In all likelihood, yes. But the design of the Model 001 allows you to do that. 180 degree Fahrenheit, (82 degree Celsius) Hemi thermostat valves do exist.

1) MISHIMOTO PART # MMTS-JED-06L
2) JET PART # 10183
3) DURALAST PART # 41680

Stant themselves make a 190 degree thermostat valve... its number is 48799. Prices for the valves are a little higher than the 203 degree valve I recommend due to the fact that significantly smaller production runs for the lower temperature valves are done as they are for "High Performance" and "Off Road" applications of the Hemi engines. The 203 degree valve is the O.E. temperature replacement for the Hemi engines.

The 180 degree thermostat valves are close enough to the O.E. 176 degree opening temperature that there would be a negligible effect on emissions.

I am curious, though, joelukex4... since when have you or any other CRD owning member of LOSTJEEPS.com been concerned about meeting EPA regulations? I can't recall any CRD LOSTJEEPS member being concerned about passing an emissions test. Serious question; not being sarcastic here.

Nobody seems concerned with this when they install a Weeks Intake elbow.

Sorry, out of town for weekend.

Both Sasquatch Motorsports & GDE have the disclaimer that the parts are intended for off road use and are not intended or legal for use on public highways. Your thermostat as is may not meet state or federal laws due to modification affecting vehicle emissions and should probably have this disclaimer. Just pointing out this observation, doesn't matter to me as I have no emissions test I have to pass.

GordnadoCRD wrote:

Interesting. They are a bit scanty on details, no?

QRParts. Never heard of em. Crown in another box?
PROVEN? Crown yet again?
Martins Auto Parts? No Country of Origin... What's going on here?

This is such a small market, it's hard to believe someone's trying to break into it on price point rather than quality.

The Proven thermostat shows a crown box in the product pictures.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

Quotes from joelukex4:

"Both Sasquatch Motorsports & GDE have the disclaimer that the parts are intended for off road use and are not intended or legal for use on public highways. Your thermostat as is may not meet state or federal laws due to modification affecting vehicle emissions and should probably have this disclaimer. Just pointing out this observation, doesn't matter to me as I have no emissions test I have to pass."

I do not feel I have to do this as you have the lower thermostat valve option to use with the H.D.S. Model 001, as you have probably guessed. I am certain that more sophisticated means of testing emissions will be developed in the future. I therefore recommend that every H.D.S. Model 001 owner purchase a second lower temperature valve to be ready to change out when Big Brother asks you to drop by for an emissions testing appointment.

"The Proven thermostat shows a crown box in the product pictures."

Yeah, I kinda thought so. Thanks for the input joelukex4!

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:04 pm

joelukex4 wrote:

GordnadoCRD wrote:

Interesting. They are a bit scanty on details, no?

QRParts. Never heard of em. Crown in another box?
PROVEN? Crown yet again?
Martins Auto Parts? No Country of Origin... What's going on here?

This is such a small market, it's hard to believe someone's trying to break into it on price point rather than quality.

The Proven thermostat shows a crown box in the product pictures.

I noticed that as well. It's the other two I"m curious about. There have been a handful of sellers with completely unmarked packaging, pricing 2.8CRD thermostats at roughly low $30s (1/3 the price of a Crown.) Those are two of them. The product info doesn't even list country if origin. That's why I'm wondering if they are made in the same factory as Crown thermostats, and are marketing through the import network at the same price Crown pays, allowing smaller sellers to flood the market with their junk. Also makes me wonder if Crown recently tried to "re-negotiate" the terms of their factory labor contract, - unsuccessfully.
It's just a guess, but this looks familiar. I've seen things go sideways like that before.

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:48 pm

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

Quotes from joelukex4:

"Both Sasquatch Motorsports & GDE have the disclaimer that the parts are intended for off road use and are not intended or legal for use on public highways. Your thermostat as is may not meet state or federal laws due to modification affecting vehicle emissions and should probably have this disclaimer. Just pointing out this observation, doesn't matter to me as I have no emissions test I have to pass."

I do not feel I have to do this as you have the lower thermostat valve option to use with the H.D.S. Model 001, as you have probably guessed. I am certain that more sophisticated means of testing emissions will be developed in the future. I therefore recommend that every H.D.S. Model 001 owner purchase a second lower temperature valve to be ready to change out when Big Brother asks you to drop by for an emissions testing appointment.

"The Proven thermostat shows a crown box in the product pictures."

Yeah, I kinda thought so. Thanks for the input joelukex4!

Don't think the thermostat opening value influences nox that much. EcoDiesel thermostat opens at 205 and it's fully opened at 225. This is higher than the default hds thermostat which is what, 200 or 198? I doubt there is a bypass with colder coolant anywhere else for the EcoDiesel's egr.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:26 pm

Supposedly they make up for that with the massive amount of EGs being crammed up it's R.
The sales people are trained to explain that away as "pollutants being re-burned".
Funny, how it increases fuel consumed, and reduces engine life, rather than making it more efficient.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

thermorex wrote:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

Quotes from joelukex4:

"Both Sasquatch Motorsports & GDE have the disclaimer that the parts are intended for off road use and are not intended or legal for use on public highways. Your thermostat as is may not meet state or federal laws due to modification affecting vehicle emissions and should probably have this disclaimer. Just pointing out this observation, doesn't matter to me as I have no emissions test I have to pass."

I do not feel I have to do this as you have the lower thermostat valve option to use with the H.D.S. Model 001, as you have probably guessed. I am certain that more sophisticated means of testing emissions will be developed in the future. I therefore recommend that every H.D.S. Model 001 owner purchase a second lower temperature valve to be ready to change out when Big Brother asks you to drop by for an emissions testing appointment.

"The Proven thermostat shows a crown box in the product pictures."

Yeah, I kinda thought so. Thanks for the input joelukex4!

Don't think the thermostat opening value influences nox that much. EcoDiesel thermostat opens at 205 and it's fully opened at 225. This is higher than the default hds thermostat which is what, 200 or 198? I doubt there is a bypass with colder coolant anywhere else for the EcoDiesel's egr.

Actually, NOx is very much controlled by engine temperature. That is why the Liberty CRD and now the Colorado/Canyon series of pickups with the Duramax 2.8L engine have 80 degree Celsius, (176 degree Fahrenheit), thermostat valves for the North American market, rather than the overseas markets that utilize higher opening temperature thermostat assemblies. The EPA has stricter standards for lower NOx emissions here in North America than pollution control standards elsewhere in the world, hence the lower thermostat valve opening temperatures.

I also note the 3.0L EcoDiesel has a hot thermostat opening... many thanks to you sending me one for evaluation, thermorex!!

It is therefore likely NOT a coincidence now that the 3.0L EcoDiesel engine in both the Ram 1500 and the Grand Cherokee is now under investigation by the EPA for breaking emissions limits. Notice that there are none for sale at your friendly local FCA Stealership as production has stopped in 2016 and whatever inventory has been blown out the door with big discounts. I strongly suspect that the EcoDiesel - if it is re-introduced into the North American market - will come with a dramatically lower temperature engine thermostat assembly to comply with EPA standards. This means additional problems for future customers purchasing a vehicle with the EcoDiesel engine.

By the way, developing an upgrade thermostat assembly for the EcoDiesel engine is going to be very difficult as the O.E. part is a PARTIAL assembly. I can not control the size of the chamber the replaceable valve is to sit in, so I am very restricted in what I can do in this circumstance.

The standard thermostat valve I install in the Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 engine thermostat assembly is a Stant 48792... this is a 203 degree opening temperature valve.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:02 am

...and well under $20 when you need a new one.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:25 am

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

It is therefore likely NOT a coincidence now that the 3.0L EcoDiesel engine in both the Ram 1500 and the Grand Cherokee is now under investigation by the EPA for breaking emissions limits. Notice that there are none for sale at your friendly local FCA Stealership as production has stopped in 2016 and whatever inventory has been blown out the door with big discounts. I strongly suspect that the EcoDiesel - if it is re-introduced into the North American market - will come with a dramatically lower temperature engine thermostat assembly to comply with EPA standards. This means additional problems for future customers purchasing a vehicle with the EcoDiesel engine.

Incorrect. There was never talk of any hardware changes. All proposed fixes were software only. Software fix has been approved and 2017 models are approved for sale.

https://www.law360.com/articles/949428

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

Thermostat Bracket Needed

Who is online