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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:47 pm 
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I'm excited about getting the Mahindras over here but I sure hope that they don"t model there dealerships and vehicles after Jag or Land rover (unless you are talking about a typell).

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 Post subject: Unlike danoid, my Fuel Systems Engineer Brother drank the...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:36 pm 
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..Detroit Ford Kool Aid years ago. He can't get it through his head that diesel owners expect to pay more and in return they want a better product. Danoid has seen the light and knows that the cost of fuel even when diesel is more is a major factor in car or truck ownership. What we are fighting are STUPID BEAN COUNTERS who think you should be able to produce a diesel for the same cost as a gasser and sell it for more. Another thing my brother wines about is emissions issues he should fix with no funding to do so.
Hybrid owners may have the same attitude as diesel owners where they are willing to pay more but expect more as well. For people who make lots of money and live in a congested area like NYC, DC, LA, ect a Hybrid SUV may be what they want. Come up with a Bluetech SUV and I would bet you that these higher income people will buy them. Why the Idiot Bean Counters can't get that through their heads, I will never know.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:47 pm 
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Most higher income people I know(granted it's not a high amount) care for performance and could care less what the mpg is. I also find, for the most part, hybrid owners completely different than diesel owners.JMHO.

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 Post subject: Who I had in mind
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:58 pm 
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onthehunt wrote:
Most higher income people I know(granted it's not a high amount) care for performance and could care less what the mpg is. I also find, for the most part, hybrid owners completely different than diesel owners.JMHO.


Mention the names that go with the initials SH or RL and you are accused of starting a Political debate. Both these guys are Hybrid SUV nuts, Cadillac Escalade to be specific, I hope they buy a fleet each. As advertised, the Cadillac SUV is tuned for performance more than Mileage. Hybrids have their place in highly congested traffic, for me Diesel is the way to go for my road trips.

The only attitude that I tried to connect between Diesel and Hybrid owners is the willingness to pay for what they get and the Stupid Detroit Bean Counters have not figured this out. High performance owners pay for what they want as well.

As far as any real Political Debates go, Joe the Plumber Won last night :!: :lol: :!: :lol: :!: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:20 pm 
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Simple. The bean counters all believe that a car should be able to be produced for $3000 and everyone will want to purchase it for 30,000. Except for one tiny little problem: people are able to access TONS more information than in years past, and now they KNOW what it really costs to build a vehicle. And they know that they want decent performance, and that YEA, it really IS possible to have a decently-sized car get GOOD mileage. Have our Detroit friends figured this out? Nope. They are still in bed with the oil companies and the EPA, looking at ways of reducing emissions by NOT reducing the amount of emissions-producing fuel used.

GM's motto used to be (probably still is) "We build doo doo, you'll buy it anyway" and they live up to this every day. Mopar and GM's TOKEN efforts to build something that they can slap a hybrid sticker on prove this. They want a piece of the "next hot thing" since the SUV boom is GONE, and they can't be getting insane markups anymore on cheaply-built Mexican SUV products. People won't stand for it.

But they are STILL missing the point of hybrid technology. Its not the transmission, its the MOTOR. The Ford Escapes that I mentioned (I own two Mariners) are similar to the Prius, yes. But there is one HUGE difference in the AMERICAN version of the Prius to it's Euro or Jap cousin: Ours is ONLY allowed to access 20% of the possible battery life. Ditto for the Mariner. Yes, there are differences in the programming. How about that the Mariner has to start MOVING when you take your foot off the brake, even in electric mode? How about that it has to start the GAS engine instantly when you turn the key to begin travels? Both of those 'features' are because the FOCUS GROUP during development couldn't comprehend how any vehicle could move silently and they couldn't tell that it was ON!

Detroit got a focus group of MORONS! People who buy hybrids DO expect more from them. 2mpg isn't gonna get rave reviews. 2mpg can be found in ANY car by lifting your FOOT for -5mph on the highway.

Want even more proof that Detroit hasn't got a clue? Search on the GM EV1. OVER 180mph capable, OVER 100mile range... ON LEAD BATTERIES! And I can only get 5 miles out of a Prius that has been re-wired to RE-ATTACH the EV-ONLY switch that is NOT PRESENT in American versions, yet IS there in the Jap / Euro? Hmm. Seems like the range is being artificially neutered, hmm?

Or what about the guy that took a FULL-SIZE H1 Hummer and converted it to electric... And is now capable of over 100 mpg! In a frigging 3 ton HUMMER!

People like their SUVs. Fine. I have a CRD, I like my SUV too. I've pulled a combined 11,000 lbs with both my little 4-cylinder diesel, AND the Mariner, in purely electric mode.

The technology IS HERE. I do not think it is a failure of engineering, it is either business stupidity, or something more sinister.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:33 pm 
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In describing the two basic hybrid designs, I was trying to give a thumbnail description of the differences between the "full hybrid" design of the Prius, Escape hybrid, and Volt and the power assist or "mild hybrid" found in the Aspen, Malibu, etc... I wasn't trying to get into transmission designs that direct the different sources of power to the wheels. That Chrysler has a CVT-type design that can stand up to a 5000 pound tow rating is impressive.

But while 20 and 22 mpg are impressive for a truck-based SUV, at a time of $3-4.00 gas it seems to me to miss the whole point of the exercise in building a hybrid in the first place. Its the wrong vehicle to use the technology in, and the wrong price category as well. Almost like the notion that diesels should only be sold as premium options in $35,000+ trucks and SUV's. I know engineers just design what they are directed to by the company executives, but it honestly seems to me like the management of GM, Chrysler, and Ford are intentionally trying to fail.

The diesel-hybrid Liberty you describe is a vehicle I'd actually be interested in buying, but I don't think it would be a market success. Were I the CEO of Chrysler, I'd phase out production of the current Liberty/Nitro twins, the Durango/Aspen, and maybe even the Grand Cherokee. Keep the Wrangler and Wrangler Unlimited, and apply the diesel/hybrid design you describe to them. I'd work ASAP to get a quality, attractive, mid-sized car-based SUV's to market using either clean diesel (likely licensed from VW), or more efficient hybrid system (in the short term, licensed from Toyota).

Towing is important, but if I need a new vehicle to tow my boat I'd be much more interested in a diesel Dakota that got 24 and 30 than a current generation Liberty diesel hybrid that got 33 and 30. The reality is that the overwhelming majority of SUV owners will never tow anything or go off road, which is why things like the Pilot, RAV4, Nissan Rogue, etc... continue to sell relatively well. People with lots of $$ may care more about performance than MPG, but they care even more about looking stylish. Right now a Hummer H2, Ford Expedition, Chevy Tahoe, etc... are about as stylish as polyester disco jumpsuits.

I'd bet money that within the next 2 years taxpayers are going to be asked to bailout at least 2 of the three domestic automakers. If that happens, I dearly hope it comes with strings in terms of greater fuel economy (and maybe in the form of stock purchases so we get paid back). Simply upping the fleetwide fuel economy of US cars and trucks by 5 mpg would reduce our demand on foreign oil by 5 times as much as we could ever hope to get from new oil drilling.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:03 am 
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People still like SUVs, and what's sexier than an SUV that can get more MPG than a Jetta TDI?

ANY car maker would do well to learn what that guy did with the Hummer. Hint: it's not about the transmission at all. I agree, it's cool that Mopar has a CVT that can put up with 5000 lbs of towing. But I'll take a standard design automatic with 8+ gears any day, they are proven at being able to put up with whatever weight you want to drag with them.

But what's even better than that? How about NO gears? Direct drive? Impossible you say! Can't handle the weight of the car? Incorrect! :) Think about the largest land vehicle you can. The heaviest. The one that moves the most tonnage, all day, every day.

Yep, that image in your head doesn't have a transmission. Trains don't NEED transmissions. They are hybrid drives however! In the same design as the Chevy Volt, but without a huge bank of batteries. Only a BIG honkin portable power plant. Why can't we have our SUVs designed like that? The power of an electric engine (and even the CVT) proved itself when my Mariner pulled my CRD AND trailer. I honestly didn't think it could do that.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:46 pm 
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Yes it's true. Diesel locomotives are actually series hybrid electric marvels of motive force and efficiency. I'm sure if I put Goodyears on a freight train you would only drive it only once, however. Ever been stuck in front of the red lights and bells when a train reverses directions? Or stops and starts up again? Like the guy on Monty Python once said, 'It's a simple matter of weight ratios!" 0-60 times of most road going vehicles fall around 10 seconds not 5 minutes.

Also, it's true that the Detroit hybrids use less of their available battery capacity (called State of Charge or SOC in the lingo). My personal (not endorsed by my employer) opinion is it boils down to two factors 1) we have less experience with such vehicles so are more conservative, and 2) the ones who use a large portion of the SOC do so at the cost of battery longevity - and they lie about it. Toyota's official claim was (at least at one time) that they have NEVER had a battery failure in a customer's vehicle. I find it incredible to impossible that any corporation can make a million of anything and not have a single failure.

And trust me, the GM/Chrysler AHS system is a step beyond the 'full hybrid' of the Toyota. The Toyota system relies on a small generator and large drive motor. The AHS system utilizes two medium sized motors and a real transmission architechure to swap their functions for increased high speed efficiency. At low speeds motor A is the generator and B is the drive motor, just like a Prius. Just like a Prius, at some point the output speed becomes too large to efficiently run the drive motor (notice the lower highway mpg rating of the Prius unlike a regular car). At that point the motors swap their function, A becomes the drive motor, and B becomes the generator. Since A has a different gear ratio to the output, the overall motor speeds are lowered (and efficiencies improved). This gives rise to the name 'two mode.'

The downfall of this type of operation is that a portion of the road load power has to go through a complicated path. A portion of engine torque is converted to electricity in the generator motor, sent through the vehicle to transformers, diverted to the battery, electical loads (headlights, DVD players), and the drive motor as needed. The drive motor energy is then converted back into torque. First term thermodynamics teaches the second law, "things go from bad to worse" and none of these conversions is 100% efficient. The more you put in a line, the lower the system efficiency gets.

Fortunately, there's a device already in the car that's about 96% efficient at delivering torque, it's called a conventional automatic transmission (not including the torque converter which this vehicle doesn't have). So, when loads become too high, the transmission reverts to a fixed gear ratio for mechanical efficiency at that operating point. This is where the motors can then behave like the Honda system, and just add torque at the expense of the battery. This is how the hybrid Durango/Aspen can produce 400 hp, while the conventional produces less. It's 'brochure' horsepower, it only happens under certain circumstances, but it does happen, just floor it.

The beauty of this system is that it turns the engine from being a torque and rpm generator into being only a torque generator (and not the only one in the system). Now that you don't need the engine to produce a full range of rpm (typically 1000-6000), an engine that is great at producing torque, but not so great at making high rpm can be used to propel the vehicle. If you're reading this forum, you know what that engine is. What's the difference between an engine that makes 340 lbf-ft (the latest 2.8L VM), and 385 lbf-ft (a Hemi). Not a lot. What's the difference between the fuel consumption of our trucks vs. anything with a Hemi? Significant. This has been brought up, but in my opinion, not absorbed, by the people who count in any automotive company.

The decision making process of the executives (which by now you can assume doesn't inlude me) probably focused on the following...

How can a buyer quickly recoup their investment? Save LOTS of gallons of gas. That's what a move from 14 to 20 mpg does.

Unfortunately, that process relies on the assumption that the guy who bought an SUV last time will buy another. As I point out today at work (to my professional detriment) buyers chose to maximize their dollars per mile instead, they dropped 14 mpg and even 20 mpg SUVs like the bad habit they were. I drive the KJ CRD only because it's the most fuel efficient vehicle that will tow my camper (it's a great bonus that I got it under employee discount). But commuting in it is making less sense every month, so I'm trying to get a 40-50 mpg commuter and keep the 24 mpg truck around for when I need it.

It was interesting to see some of the Hybrid Development Center town halls where the top bigwigs were invited in. During the question and answer periods of both the head of Chrysler and Mercedes product development, the first six questions asked of the executives were not about hybrids, but about diesels. I had to laugh silently and many of my friends asked me why I didn't start the grilling, I just answered, "I didn't have to, the facts speak for themselves!" Our answer was always, "it's too expensive." Sorry about that, I'm not in charge, and they won't let me build a 'sandbox' car, although now I can probably build the team required to pull it off if I needed to.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:04 am 
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Thanks for sharing both the tech discussion and your views on all this Danoid. That was one of the most informative and insightful posts I've ever read on this message board.

I've been an auto enthusiast since I was a kid. I grew up in a family where my older brothers had a 1969 Roadrunner (w/ the 383 Six Pack), a 1972 440 Cuda, a Willys, and a CJ 5 (at various times). I've always had a soft spot in my heart for Mopar products. I'm just one data point, but there is nothing in the current Chrysler model line up I would even seriously consider spending money on. Setting aside the politics that often infuse environmental and energy discussions on this board, I think the country has changed and there are an awful lot of consumers with similar desires. The gas price shocks and the economy have put the fear of god in people, and the concerns over environmental issues are only going to grow. If the company is going to survive, it has got to recognize that reality and adapt.

I'm not happy about finding myself in this situation. I bought a new boat last month, and while my CRD has power to spare for towing it, it has been a handful dealing with wind sway over the Oregon Coast Range and Highway 101 (going to have to invest in an Equalizer hitch for it). I'd trade the CRD in on a I-4 diesel Dakota tomorrow. If there had a been a decent diesel (or gas hybrid) from Chrysler (or the other domestics) that could compete with the performance of the VW TDI or a Prius, I'd have bought it over the Jetta my wife currently drives.

How do American's effectively communicate these desires to the people who matter in companies like Chrysler? I feel like the executives view folks who want mpg and cleaner cars with contempt rather than as potential customers.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:18 pm 
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Threeweight wrote:
...

How do American's effectively communicate these desires to the people who matter in companies like Chrysler? I feel like the executives view folks who want mpg and cleaner cars with contempt rather than as potential customers.


They don't. Which is why GM and Chrysler are operationally bankrupt and Toyota could by out both with less than one years earnings, even in this down market. I feel for the engineers at Jeep, Chrysler and even at GM. I don't feel for the execs and I don't have much sympathy for the Union workers. I have none for the stealerships. I just hope someone buys the Jeep nameplate who realizes what it is and keeps some of the engineers.

Toyota and Honda are run by engineers. Detroit companies are ran by ivy league MBA's and career butt kissers. It is not too hard to see who is doing the better job.


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 Post subject: back to 09 TDI talk...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:50 pm 
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I have had a 2006 Liberty CRD since August of 06, and just recently bought a 2009 Jetta TDI. I couldn't find one through the Union City, GA dealer since they had a limited number inbound which were all spoken for. The salesman told me he was selling them for MSRP, and while others might be charging extra he was not. He called a couple of times when cars were available because of people backing-out of a deal, and when he got 2 extra deliveries on short-notice in late August, but it wasn't a good time for me.
I kept looking online to see what else was available (used TDIs, old MB diesels, etc.) when I stumbled on a couple of 09 TDIs on eBay. I figured it was an easy way for a dealer to get top dollar for a hot seller. I saw one go for a little over the MSRP, and then saw one just like I wanted (Silver, DSG transmission, sunroof, not over-loaded) in Sarasota, FL. I kept watching to see if the price would soar, but it didn't. As the auction came to a close, I threw a couple of bids in, and ultimately stopped just short of MSRP (the dealer had included a photo of the sticker). They had the reserve right at MSRP, so no sale, but I got a second chance offer from them next day for purchasing at the MSRP. I really wanted the car, so I agreed to the deal (Wednesday, I think). I flew to SRQ on a Friday evening, they picked me up Saturday morning, less than 2 hours of paperwork later and we were off to the beach. Drove back to ATL on Sunday and got 40.7 mi/gal for the whole weekend's journey. I'm very happy so far, with about 1300 miles driven. If you're looking for a great experience buying an 09 TDI, I can certainly recommend Suncoast VW/Porsche/Audi in Sarasota. They treated me well.
I may sell the 06 CRD, since trade offers were extremely low, and I don't need two vehicles with payments right now. Stand by for an ad on another thread...

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 Post subject: more on thread: 09 TDI jabber--
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:53 pm 
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I got a phone call from the stealership I bought my wife's 06 TDI. He boasts "time to trade in for an 09" and went off on all his Jettas avail-gassers included. I said "well fine but we are happy but call me back when you guys go off of invoice instead of retail pricing. and -- let me know on how all that EPA tier 2 bin5-regeration business works out in warranty."
I was stunned when he said " Whats that tier, bin, and regeneration stuff and can I call you if I get stumped on a related question over this?" I blushed when he said I sounded like I knew what I was talking about. I can tell he really did not know anything about his diesels he was selling. It's all about the pricing and needed tradeins.
BTW "Vincent" at Camelback WV, Phoenix, Az was the guy/location

Roland

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 Post subject: Re: more on thread: 09 TDI jabber--
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:05 pm 
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Silverdiesel wrote:
I got a phone call from the stealership I bought my wife's 06 TDI. He boasts "time to trade in for an 09" and went off on all his Jettas avail-gassers included. I said "well fine but we are happy but call me back when you guys go off of invoice instead of retail pricing. and -- let me know on how all that EPA tier 2 bin5-regeration business works out in warranty."
I was stunned when he said " Whats that tier, bin, and regeneration stuff and can I call you if I get stumped on a related question over this?" I blushed when he said I sounded like I knew what I was talking about. I can tell he really did not know anything about his diesels he was selling. It's all about the pricing and needed tradeins.
BTW "Vincent" at Camelback WV, Phoenix, Az was the guy/location

Roland


Was he wiping out prairie dog holes with toilet paper :?: :?: :?: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Most of the Pollsters are :!: :!: :!: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now let me interject some common sense science. 1) A very small quantity of Roach feces is more likely to produce an asthma attack than the particulates belching out of the stack of a pre '89 MACK truck. Asthma solution recommended at the time, clean up the house!!!
2) Modern diesels are far cleaner and put out way less in particulates. Asthma solution recommended now, don't worry about the endangered Roach and its feces or cleaning up the house; evoke the EPA tier 2 bin5-regulation, plus bankrupt the coal industry :!: :!: :!: :!:

I think the EPA is wiping out gopher holes (eastern thing) with toilet paper :!: :evil:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:10 pm 
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What is in the Michigan appearance package?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:41 am 
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Magnum wrote:
What is in the Michigan appearance package?


A $700 set of mudflaps.

UPDATE: Last Friday it started raining TDI's at my local VW stealership. They called and said they had a silver automatic (what I told them I wanted) unspoken for and would sell it to me for sticker. So they listened to part of what I told them. But the first part was that my wife's lease isn't up until February. It must of totally baffled them that someone would attempt to plan a few months ahead of time for a $24k purchase. I know it totally baffles me that some people don't try to plan...

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:21 pm 
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danoid wrote:
Magnum wrote:
What is in the Michigan appearance package?

A $700 set of mudflaps.[quote]

Actually it's a OSU flag on the radio antenna :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:02 pm 
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geordi wrote:
Don't forget the pre-installed undercarriage rust factory!


Anyone can have the Michigan Anti rust undercoat for less than $700 by installing an EHM :wink:

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