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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:30 am 
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Diesel FRAKIN ROCKS! The fact that ALL vehicles arent diesels (short of top fuel funny cars) is tantamount to insanity! Diesel is superior for all automotive applications save the afore mentioned funny cars........

FRAK THE EPA and their hatred of diesel vehicles.....

Over and out! :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:30 am 
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vtdog wrote:
It is my belief that the fuel system problem experienced by some owners is not a “design” flaw, but rather a “mechanical” error found in those cars which display the problem. If the problem were due to a design issue then “all” owners would have experienced the issue. Clearly this is not the case. I suspect that the problem is related to poor manufacture and/or installation of the fuel lines/heads which results in poor sealing of the system due to gasket, or fitting failure/misalignment. The result being that the system, under vacuum rather than pressure as has been noted, sucks in air and causes the engine to be starved of fuel.

Logic would dictate that the problem has to be “unique” to those vehicles which display the problem, or else all would have reported the issue. The percentage of owners noting the difficulty may be high, but it is not 100%. I am an original owner with over 70k miles at present. I have started/driven the Jeep in temps ranging from -20 to over 100F without issue. I get a general mpg of 25+/- and have approached 30 mpg on occasion in hot weather. My car is bone stock and has had no fuel issues (except a minor slow start due to dirty filter) in the entire time I have owned it. I normally change my filter at 25 thousand miles and have only had to prime the system after filter change. I do not use any fuel additives except some anti-gel in very cold weather.

I am not an engineer, mechanic, or gear head, but just a lowly chemist. I do understand the principal of “Occam’s razor” which has been understood by both scientists and philosophers since the 1300s. Basically the theory states that the simplest answer to a problem is the most correct. I suspect that the simple answer is mechanical failure, not design flaw. If I had the problem I would be looking at the fittings and couplings FIRST and eliminate those as the cause before looking for more complicated solutions.

Just my 2 cents. Oh and by the way, kudos to GDE for simple, logical, and non-emotional solutions.



By this reasoning, none of the common issues encountered by the average CRD owner are "design flaws". The recalled ball joints must be due to manufacturing variance, not due to a design flaw using an undersized weight bearing component in a heavy SUV because not a full 100% of owners have had to replace them. The sticky EGRs must be due to improper installation at the factory, not because of all of that thick black crap stuck in the perfectly designed part. The torque converter replacements performed by DCX must have been done because some tech putting them together at the factory thought that the instructions said plastic stator and not steel stator. It obviously couldn't have been because of design flaws, because not 100% of owners have had to replace their Torque converters.

Ask the airline industry what an "acceptable" rate of failure is for a particular part to be considered to have a design flaw. The answer will often be just one.

I'm not sure how you are differentiating between "mechanical failure" and "design flaw". Under normal operating conditions, If it fails when it shouldn't, or well before it's expected lifespan, it is a design flaw.

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Last edited by nursecosmo on Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:08 am 
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I'll put some diesel on the fire here by saying my CRD didn't have AIF problems while I drove it (~12,000 miles). It didn't have the lift pump but I think it is easier having a lift pump than not having one.

Feel good is what it essentially is about if the fuel lines were properly made(!). Sorry for those who bought a truck with a faulty leaky fuel system which wasn't up to spec for the vacuum sucking CP3 pump. With all due respect I believe the problem is not within the design but within the specifications of the fuel lines. I also agree it is cheaper to make a reliable fuel system which is slightly pressurized compared to one which isn't. That said, for an owner with slightly off-spec lines I can't find better solutions to AIF problems than the lift pump.

In my Skoda I've got a lift pump mounted from the factory. Hell the PD engines got 7 (!!) pumps in the fuel system. When fuel comes from the tank and goes to the cylinder it passes through 4 pumps on its way there. Lift pump -> tandem med. pres. pump (this one counts as two pumps actually)-> PD high pressure pump (one per cylinder).

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:13 pm 
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I have a post up "Jeep Still Stalling" and after a few posts here, I am convinced my filter head is getting air in it. It only happens now in the summer after some driving and a good park for about an hour or more. Just enough to get a good "heat soak".
Sure enough it will start, but when I'm about to drive it will stall or feel like it's about to stall. Actually it won't move, feels like the parking brake is on. The turbo spools and the truck barley moves. Ranger1, I am convinced after reading your post that this is my issue.
I have a new lift pump and it was instantaneously noticble driving on the highway with it. The truck ran so smooth.
After much chagrin, I am going with the Racor unit. Even though the redesigned MOPAR unit has been on from the dealership for a little over a month, I think the extra fuel pressure that the lift pump is making is causing a leak when the truck is left to heat soak.
As for the GDE bashers, I like a good controversy. It's entertaining and sure as hell woke the board up.
I also seem to learn more because the passionate professors of the CRD craft come forward and call people out on it. I have no issue with GDE and welcome any more finds they may post, because again, I sure am learning a lot in just this one post.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:08 pm 
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NJCRD wrote:
I have a post up "Jeep Still Stalling" and after a few posts here, I am convinced my filter head is getting air in it. It only happens now in the summer after some driving and a good park for about an hour or more. Just enough to get a good "heat soak".
Sure enough it will start, but when I'm about to drive it will stall or feel like it's about to stall. Actually it won't move, feels like the parking brake is on. The turbo spools and the truck barley moves. Ranger1, I am convinced after reading your post that this is my issue.


It is very hard or impossible to build up boost without adequate fuel flow. If you say that you hear the turbo spool up and it feels like the parking brake is on, I would say that fuel supply or air in fuel is not your problem. Especially since you have a lift pump already. Does the engine run rough when you start it, before it stalls? Like it's misfiring or running on less than 4 cylinders? Will it stall if you just leave it in park long enough?

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Bilstein adjustables, Al's Gen 4.5 Arms, 235/85-16 Duratracs, DTT rear, Elocker front, EVIC+TPMS, Turbo timer, McNally pillar gauges, Weeks Stage II kit.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:16 pm 
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It will not stall in park or neutral. It doesn't seem to misfire.
I step on the go pedal and you hear the turbo spool but she won't move.
That's when I put it in park and rev the motor. Drop back in gear and it goes.
My thoughts have been egr. But have the segr now so that's eliminated.
Then I thought fuel. But I have the new head unit and the pump so I am still scratching my head.
Cat, you think it could be tranny?

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DIESEL
Skid Row Engine and Fuel Tank Skid Plates, straight pipe, modified air box, Tow Hooks, 245/70/16 Hankook ATM RF10s, Kennedy Lift Pump,Home Made Provent, Husky Liners throughout, Wet Okole seat covers, All J Products Rear Storage Shelf, Fumoto, Frozen Rotors-Cross Drilled and Slotted, and Bilsteins all around


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:52 pm 
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NJCRD wrote:
It will not stall in park or neutral. It doesn't seem to misfire.
I step on the go pedal and you hear the turbo spool but she won't move.
That's when I put it in park and rev the motor. Drop back in gear and it goes.
My thoughts have been egr. But have the segr now so that's eliminated.
Then I thought fuel. But I have the new head unit and the pump so I am still scratching my head.
Cat, you think it could be tranny?


It sounds more and more like the transmission. Hold off on that Racor filter head. When there's air in your fuel it will run rough and sound like crap.

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Bilstein adjustables, Al's Gen 4.5 Arms, 235/85-16 Duratracs, DTT rear, Elocker front, EVIC+TPMS, Turbo timer, McNally pillar gauges, Weeks Stage II kit.


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 Post subject: Flaw of vacuum fuel flow logic
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:36 pm 
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nursecosmo wrote:
vtdog wrote:
It is my belief that the fuel system problem experienced by some owners is not a “design” flaw, but rather a “mechanical” error found in those cars which display the problem. If the problem were due to a design issue then “all” owners would have experienced the issue. Clearly this is not the case. I suspect that the problem is related to poor manufacture and/or installation of the fuel lines/heads which results in poor sealing of the system due to gasket, or fitting failure/misalignment. The result being that the system, under vacuum rather than pressure as has been noted, sucks in air and causes the engine to be starved of fuel.

Logic would dictate that the problem has to be “unique” to those vehicles which display the problem, or else all would have reported the issue. The percentage of owners noting the difficulty may be high, but it is not 100%. I am an original owner with over 70k miles at present. I have started/driven the Jeep in temps ranging from -20 to over 100F without issue. I get a general mpg of 25+/- and have approached 30 mpg on occasion in hot weather. My car is bone stock and has had no fuel issues (except a minor slow start due to dirty filter) in the entire time I have owned it. I normally change my filter at 25 thousand miles and have only had to prime the system after filter change. I do not use any fuel additives except some anti-gel in very cold weather.

I am not an engineer, mechanic, or gear head, but just a lowly chemist. I do understand the principal of “Occam’s razor” which has been understood by both scientists and philosophers since the 1300s. Basically the theory states that the simplest answer to a problem is the most correct. I suspect that the simple answer is mechanical failure, not design flaw. If I had the problem I would be looking at the fittings and couplings FIRST and eliminate those as the cause before looking for more complicated solutions.

Just my 2 cents. Oh and by the way, kudos to GDE for simple, logical, and non-emotional solutions.



By this reasoning, none of the common issues encountered by the average CRD owner are "design flaws". The recalled ball joints must be due to manufacturing variance, not due to a design flaw using an undersized weight bearing component in a heavy SUV because not a full 100% of owners have had to replace them. The sticky EGRs must be due to improper installation at the factory, not because of all of that thick black crap stuck in the perfectly designed part. The torque converter replacements performed by DCX must have been done because some tech putting them together at the factory thought that the instructions said plastic stator and not steel stator. It obviously couldn't have been because of design flaws, because not 100% of owners have had to replace their Torque converters.

Ask the airline industry what an "acceptable" rate of failure is for a particular part to be considered to have a design flaw. The answer will often be just one.

I'm not sure how you are differentiating between "mechanical failure" and "design flaw". Under normal operating conditions, If it fails when it shouldn't, or well before it's expected lifespan, it is a design flaw.


Any time you place a vacuum on the inlet side of the pump, you have a potential for air leakage. I the old pre TDI VW diesels they had a strainer in the tank that would wax up and make the car stall and starve for fuel. I lost count how many strainers I tossed in the garbage. Since they had an air trap in the top of the VE pump, any air bubbles were separated and sent back to the tank to rise to the top and go away. Due to this design they got away with sucking fuel out of the tank.
In the Waste Water business they put the plants along the river so all the stuff goes down hill. Where there are houses on the beach they need to SUCK the sewage out of the drains to get it to lift stations to send it to the plant.
Does any one need to ask me what happens when the sewer line going to the house has a vacuum leak :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Vacuum sewer systems are Job security for sewer plant workers.
They love the idea that because 100% don't fail every year, it is not a design flaw.
Another case of when something sucks it can fail.
That is why my vote on this topic is for the Bean Counter Design flaw.
GDE may have a great tune, but they jumped into a hornets nest on the Lift Pump.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaw of vacuum fuel flow logic
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:03 pm 
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warp2diesel wrote:
Another case of when something sucks it can fail.


Does it fail because it sucks, or does it suck because it fails? :-)r

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:48 pm 
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NJCRD wrote:
It will not stall in park or neutral. It doesn't seem to misfire.
I step on the go pedal and you hear the turbo spool but she won't move.
That's when I put it in park and rev the motor. Drop back in gear and it goes.
My thoughts have been egr. But have the segr now so that's eliminated.
Then I thought fuel. But I have the new head unit and the pump so I am still scratching my head.
Cat, you think it could be tranny?


More questions...

Only on the first start of the day?
Only in Drive? How about Reverse?
Is your foot on the brake as you get into Drive?
Have you had F37?
If so was the transmission pump replaced?
Have you ever driven a manual trans vehicle and forgot to let up the clutch while coming to a stop? Does it remind you of that?

I had a similar situation where (only on the first drive after sitting for 5 hours or more) I could back out of my driveway to my hearts content, put it in drive, go forward to my mailbox, but it would stall as I stopped in front of the mailbox.

It was never properly diagnosed, but it was 'shotgun fixed' by replacing the torque converter, pump, and valve body.

Subsequent analysis didn't find anything wrong with the valve body, but the pump and torque converter were lost in the shuffle, so they were never properly analyzed. I do know, however, the pump wasn't in the best of shape, because the dealership that performed my F37 managed to forget to tighten all of the bellhousing bolts. This lead to unusual flexing of the engine/transmission interface, at the center of which sits the torque converter hub which drives the pump. Bad alignment there usually wears out the pump bushing making the pump unable to properly generate pressure. A pump unable to properly generate pressure cannot properly unlock the torque converter clutch, which, evidently, can stall the engine in Drive but not Reverse at low rpm. (at least that's the theory since the parts were lost)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:46 am 
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More questions...

Only on the first start of the day? No, never. Runs great the first of the day.
Only in Drive? How about Reverse? Only in Drive, never reverse.
Is your foot on the brake as you get into Drive? Yes, foot is on brake as I engage "D"
Have you had F37? Yeah, they got me for that early in 06 when I first bought her and knew nothing about the problems I would one day face.
If so was the transmission pump replaced? This is a good question, I have to dig through my paper work this weekend and see. They rebuilt the whole trans in 2007. I don't know if they went with the new pump or not.
Have you ever driven a manual trans vehicle and forgot to let up the clutch while coming to a stop? Does it remind you of that? This is how it feels! Finally! Someone that proves I'm not a total nut. :wink:
What is really weird about this is the same sort of sitting situation. I will park in my garage and back out after a few hours, after the truck has been driven and thoroughly heated up. Sure enough, I get to the end of my drive way and it gives the stumble "manual clutch feel" in front of my mailbox. If I feel it about to happen I throw it up into neutral and rev the engine and reengage into drive. That always fixes it. With what you're telling me and from what CATCRD told me, I'm thinking it's the trans. I will hold off on the RACOR and use the money for a SUNCOAST torque converter.
Now, here is the question. I don't mind a good hard shift and I've seen previous threads about the hardware. Would you let the dealership rebuild everything for you with your supplied converter, shift kits, and valve body?
I have the extended warranty and figured while they rebuild it I'm in a loaner car till completion. Or would you "eat it" and have someone you trust rebuild it for you?

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Skid Row Engine and Fuel Tank Skid Plates, straight pipe, modified air box, Tow Hooks, 245/70/16 Hankook ATM RF10s, Kennedy Lift Pump,Home Made Provent, Husky Liners throughout, Wet Okole seat covers, All J Products Rear Storage Shelf, Fumoto, Frozen Rotors-Cross Drilled and Slotted, and Bilsteins all around


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:16 am 
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NJCRD wrote:
Finally! Someone that proves I'm not a total nut. :wink:


Far from it. You drive a CRD like the rest of us... :wink: Maybe it's a problem with our mailboxes :wink: :wink:

Seriously though. My experience with dealerships has been less than stellar. Now that I'm completely out of warranty I'll figure it out myself (if I screw it up I know who's responsible) or shop it out to someone I trust. The basic problem (IMO) with dealerships is the mechanic pay structure, they get more money to do work faster. Even the best mechanic can make small errors then. Like forgetting to bolt up all of the bellhousing bolts, or not taking the time to replace stripped out weld nuts on the trans crossmember... Both have happened to me and it was a significant effort to fix. (NOTE TO ALL: please don't consider this a slam against all dealership mechanics - people rarely really want to screw things up - just my experience / view)

Find your original F37 paperwork and determine if you had a new transmission pump installed with the torque converter. If not, or maybe in either case, I strongly suggest you consider replacing the transmission pump with the latest design. Labor wise, it's a good combination with replacing the torque converter.

I believe the F37 torque converter kit was numbered CECAF370 and the corresponding pump kit was CECAF371. Look for those on your paperwork. If you have to order a new pump kit, however, I'm not sure if you can order that separately (and I don't have the 'normal' service part number at hand - it should be somewhere around here though). Check with your dealer.

Also, if you can, hold off on that Suncoast purchase for as long as possible.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:18 am 
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Thanks Dan. Out of curiousity, why hold off on the suncoast?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:20 am 
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Working on it. Not ready to announce.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:23 am 
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Come on, you can't keep secrets here :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:19 am 
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danoid wrote:
Working on it. Not ready to announce.



8) Me thinks I have a idea about that. :wink: Or maybe not. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:18 pm 
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I think the problem is in the valve-body, causing the TCC to lock prematurely - be nice to get some hands-on with that KJ and a scantool - maybe the "problem" could be worked to our advantage, with TCC lock on demand - would require the Hemi-vertor.

Minor shift-point variations are resulted from actual tire diameter, incl tire pressure, and the programmed tire size\diameter in computer - mine is in OD well B4 TCC lock at 54mph,and stays in lock till just below 52mph - I have Suncoast\Transgo and 2.55's and reset the computer for tire diameter, as 2.55's are not listed

I anticipate similar upgraded performance from the oem-stock Hemi TC in normal street usage - the Suncoast Hemi TC is necessary for drag-racing, but not for the minor hauling\towing capabilities of this small swb chassis - all TC dimensions are identical - all 545RFE input parts are identical p\n's - only slight concern I have is whether the Hemi convertor clutch was upgraded 11\05 along with the KJ clutch - it may not matter, as the Hemi-vertor has lower stall by ~400rpm so there would not be clutch in\out chatter as with the hi-stall KJ-vertor - will post results soon - stay tuned................

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 Post subject: Food For Thought 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:59 pm 
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1. Catalyst is the law right or wrong. No change in fuel mileage observed.
2. My lift pump makes changing filters easier and if I need more fuel to the injector pump, it will be on tap.
3. Added a tranny cooling radiator with thermal bypass and eliminated the electric fan but do cool down after hot runs. Also did suncoast, tranny pump and shift kit.
4. My biggest performance improvement was cleaning the MAP sensor, the ehm means it does not get dirty again.

5. Still thinking of getting a tune mod and maybe turbo mod with exhaust to my 3" catback $$$$$.

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 Post subject: Re: Food For Thought 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:11 pm 
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[quote="fastRob"]4. My biggest performance improvement was cleaning the MAP sensor,/quote]

And the best part was it was free :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:33 pm
Posts: 1766
Location: Wisconsin Northwoods
gmctd wrote:
I think the problem is in the valve-body, causing the TCC to lock prematurely - be nice to get some hands-on with that KJ and a scantool - maybe the "problem" could be worked to our advantage, with TCC lock on demand - would require the Hemi-vertor.

Minor shift-point variations are resulted from actual tire diameter, incl tire pressure, and the programmed tire size\diameter in computer - mine is in OD well B4 TCC lock at 54mph,and stays in lock till just below 52mph - I have Suncoast\Transgo and 2.55's and reset the computer for tire diameter, as 2.55's are not listed

I anticipate similar upgraded performance from the oem-stock Hemi TC in normal street usage - the Suncoast Hemi TC is necessary for drag-racing, but not for the minor hauling\towing capabilities of this small swb chassis - all TC dimensions are identical - all 545RFE input parts are identical p\n's - only slight concern I have is whether the Hemi convertor clutch was upgraded 11\05 along with the KJ clutch - it may not matter, as the Hemi-vertor has lower stall by ~400rpm so there would not be clutch in\out chatter as with the hi-stall KJ-vertor - will post results soon - stay tuned................


Just a question about the Hemi TC. Is it for sure that it has a lower stall? I was under the impression that it had a higher stall due to the higher RPM torque band. All I have to go on is the peak torque @4200 RPM based on another forum posting.

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Manure green 2005 CRD sport4x4, GDE Hot tune, Cat Gut, OE skids, Draw tight hitch, Duramax lift pump, 160K on multiple varieties of fuel, XM radio, Escort live with Redline, fog light mod, GPS, Icom IC7000 all band radio call sign KC9QPF, Grabber AT2s on Soft 8s, FIA grill blanket.


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