CRD Engine "knock". Broken Rockers? Jumped Time? *Updates*

Brasher · **Joined:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:02 pm **Posts:** 80

Sasquatch has them (rather had them) in stock. I ordered this morning, hopefully they can pull through with the overnight shipping.

I thought about just ordering the pins, but I really like how easy it is to keep the cam sprockets aligned with the Miller tool.

thermorex · **Posted:** Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:45 pm

Brasher wrote:

Sasquatch has them (rather had them) in stock. I ordered this morning, hopefully they can pull through with the overnight shipping.

I thought about just ordering the pins, but I really like how easy it is to keep the cam sprockets aligned with the Miller tool.

Fwiw, you still need the cam pins to set the cams on time, as the sprockets from the cams don't have any marking or woodruff key on them.

Brasher · **Joined:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:02 pm **Posts:** 80

Roger that. I think really, last time I did this I had the Miller tool and it went back together beautifully. I didn't want change things up.

Hexus · **Posted:** Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:15 pm

Brasher wrote:

Thanks for the offer. Unfortunately if I do it this weekend, I would have to have it done before Monday morning. Sounds like a tall order, but at least I have performed a tear down all the way to pulling the cam sprockets off before.

Heh, then you were about halfway there to doing the rockers and lifters, trust me.

rankom · **Posted:** Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:20 pm

im going to say this, this is only me if in situation that i want to see exhaust valve movement, i would pull exhaust manifold, bar engine over watch if every valve stem go up and down (this can be seen thru exhaust ports , ) no movement means broken exhaust rockers (valve closed ) again don't take this seriously ,,,,just my old school ideas ,,,,

Brasher · **Joined:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:02 pm **Posts:** 80

Just a thought: How do the valves and valve guides usually look around the time of rocker arm failures? Maybe it isn't the rocker arm bearings themselves being killed by EGR induced dirty oil, but rather EGR induced dirty valves that drag or stick and prematurely wear out the rocker arms. In the aircraft world this is called "morning sickness".

Hexus · **Posted:** Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:55 am

In every one that I've taken apart (7 to date including my own - complete rocker/lifter jobs) - the failure occurs on the top of the rocker. I have actually seen broken rocker arms, as well as failures in the needle bearings which the center of the rocker sits upon.

I've also seen scoring across the top of the rocker arms where once the race of the bearing center was pushed so far the metal of the rocker arms absorbed the damages.

I also have seen a broken lifter tappet, at the very top in the small ball section where the rocker arm connects. (This is how mine failed)

My valves were actually very, very clean but my intake looked like the smog monster took a healthy dump inside it.

I hope that helps some.

rankom · **Posted:** Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:45 pm

this rocker issue bothers me ,, so i dug out my old rockers that i replaced 2 years ago , 8 rollers loose 8 ok no play in needle bearings , i didn't mark there location so i assume loose one are either intake side or exhaust , ??? so my theory is , has to be valve piston contact in order to brake them , but i see they just brake ?? most of the time timing is ok belt didn't jump so ,,why they brake for no reason.is it because valve guide is gummed up slowing valves or spring is weak ? reason I'm saying this is after failure we replace them and its good again , but don't we need to know why ,,,, because my happen again shortly after repair , like some friends experience it . i know egr problem , but this to me is violent brake ( inpact beatvine valve and piston) i think i asked this question before .(mine didn't brake just loose 8 rollers ) i did them at 100k with tb job , appreciate if you know the answer

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:07 pm

It's the rocker's roller bearings that wear out and break.
Poor lubrication of the roller causes the bearing to wear out and seize up.
The hammering of the camshaft lobe against the seized roller causes the lash adjuster (fulcrum) to break.

At 160,000 miles my rockers were still in good shape, but I replaced them anyways because I had already purchased new ones.
The new rockers have improved lash adjusters.
I have only used 5w-40 oil since I bought it.
The EGR valve has been disabled for most of its life.

rankom · **Posted:** Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:46 pm

thank you Flash , lubrication is biggest problem you are right , but what is my concern is when this think snaps in two and i hear timing didn't jump…. or guys did everything right and shortly after drops the valve , this is my nightmare , i drive jettas with egr active , dirty intakes black oil drive them like no tomorrow foot to the floor but i don't see valve coming out of exhaust pipe . i like vm same as vw but I'm just scared going over 2000 rpm.

Brasher · **Joined:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:02 pm **Posts:** 80

Got it torn down to the rockers today. Took about 6 hours. They were in really, really bad shape. Both exhaust rockers had completely failed on number one. All of the other cylinders had atleast one failed rockers on the exhaust side. I'm not even sure any of the exhaust rockers still have their needle rollers, I'll have to check again in the morning.

My question right now is, how does this cam lobe look (this is the worst)? To me it looks pretty bad. I can't really wait for a camshaft to come in unless it is absolutely necessary.

Oh, and yes the engine was still perfectly in time.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:31 pm

I've seen worse on the camshaft. Unless there is considerable wear in the very center of the camshaft lobe, I would put that back into service no problem.

Brasher · **Joined:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:02 pm **Posts:** 80

That's good to know.

Question: Where do all of the needle rollers and other rocker arms pieces end up? Stuck on the head? Or do they make it to the oil pan?

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:20 pm

Uhm... Yes.

I know that isn't really helpful, but it could be either way. The only thing I can say is that the parts are small and the gears on the balance shafts are big, so if it somehow managed to land in those gears, the likelihood is that they would be munched instantly or slung to the side of the pan. The pickup for the oil pump is screened and anything that survives that would get jammed in the filter anyway.

If you can find / see anything loose on the top of the head or pull anything out with a magnetic feeler, that is one thing. But otherwise... You'd have to disassemble the entire motor and it would be for a fishing expedition - we can't know if anything is even there to find.

Not much you can really do about it.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:12 pm

I've inspected 6 sets of broken rocker arms with stuck or fused roller bearings.

The only way to get the roller bearings rolling again was to manhandle them with a tongue and groove pliers and or dip them in ATF for an extended amount of time or Mystery oil ..... gasoline and kerosene didn't help.

Once I got the rollers to roll again, I noticed that some had a lot of play while many others were as good as new.

And although the inside diameter of a new bearing is circular when new, the diameter of these used ones had a worn low spot like a worn journal bearing, this is the best description I can think of.

Puzzled as to why the roller bearings were fused or stuck, any ideas?

Brasher · **Joined:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:02 pm **Posts:** 80

I took another look at the camshafts today. Turns out the picture above is not the worst condition lobe. Number 4 has a lobe that looks pitted, as in it is worn past the hardened case. I'm going to go ahead and dump more money and replace both camshafts. Even the intake camshaft is showing signs of chamfers before the peak on some of the lobes. I'd hate to stress the rockers with an already poor design of the oiling system and worn camshafts driving them.

Honestly I'm more upset that I won't be able to get it back together today than I am spending the money.

rankom · **Posted:** Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:48 pm

i know ,everybody went on this road before , just take step back and do it right , yes i just mention about beater lube system like (forced lube to the rocker arms ) but thats up to engineers we are just parts changers.

Hexus · **Posted:** Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:27 pm

Your intake looks surprisingly clean honestly.

What oil were you using?

Brasher · **Joined:** Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:02 pm **Posts:** 80

It's run T6 5-40 for the 10,000 I've had it. It was pretty gunky. Not blocked, but well coated on the elbow, intake manifold, and intake runners in the head. That port on the picture is the injector through hole.

It may have been cleaned because the oil separator mostly spewed it all over the outside of the engine. Is there supposed to be a gasket around that thing?

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:23 pm

Yes. There are supposed to be two o-rings. One on each of the two ports.

CRD Engine "knock". Broken Rockers? Jumped Time? Updates

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