Black oil after less than 100 miles. (Long rant warning)

GMsKJ · **Posted:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:05 pm

For those of you willing to read and understand my frustration, I thank you. And for the record this is my 3rd poor experience with this service department. Needless to say it shouldn't have been and there wont be a 4th.

I have a concern that I've been had. This past Friday I had turned in my CRD for an oil change and the latest service recall. Setting aside the price of $103 for an oil change, I am more concerned about the oil. The oil is jet black after less than 100 miles. I have worked for Sears Automotive, Checker Auto Parts, Shell, and a few other private garages so I know how to change oil. Currently however, I do not have a place to change my own oil so I have to rely on the convenience of the "quick change" oil places or the 'stealer's' service department. I have never owned a diesel and I haven't ever used 0W-40 full synthetic motor oil so I come to you diesel experts on this. Is this black oil normal after so few miles?

I am currently looking for a contact person other than the service manager (I've already gave him an earful)
and perferably outside the dealership.
D'Ambrosio Chrysler Jeep, Kennett Square, PA

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:15 pm

Next time get some 5-40 Shell Rotella synthetic (blue bottle) at WalMart for about $15 a gallon and a NAPA Gold 1516 filter and find a place to do it. My CRD only has 2500 miled on it so the oil is still clean. But on other diesel cars with more miles I've owned the new oil gets dirty looking pretty quick. Can you tell if the filter is new :?:

How many miles are on your CRD :?:

naturist · **Posted:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:21 pm

excuse me, you may be the world's most experienced oil changer and know a great deal about gas engines, but before you go nuts excoriating anybody because your newly changed oil turned black within 100 miles, you need to know that this is normal for diesel engines, and is in fact why there are two distinct rating systems for oils in the first place.

I have owned a VW TDI (diesel) for 4 years before I bought my CRD. I have driven the former over 115,000 miles now, and have just over 18,000 miles on my CRD. Both of them turn the oil black as pitch within 100 FEET after changing the oil hot, as well as the filter.

The fact of the matter is, if you ever look at the oil in a diesel engine that has been running more than a few minutes and the oil is NOT black, you need to become suspicious that the oil is not keeping the soot in suspension properly, meaning the wrong oil was probably installed.

Yeah, yeah, every once in a blue moon somebody will come along and insist that THEIR diesel oil doesn't do that. Maybe 1 in 1,000 engines are so tight they have NO blowby whatever, thus get no soot in their oil. But it is NOT the common experience.

So, with all due respect, sir, I think you owe the folks who changed your oil an apology.

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

The oil in my crd definitely gets black fast, however, the oil in my 02 7.3 powerstroke stays much cleaner longer. The main difference is the powerstroke has no egr.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

The fact of the matter is, if you ever look at the oil in a diesel engine that has been running more than a few minutes and the oil is NOT black, you need to become suspicious that the oil is not keeping the soot in suspension properly, meaning the wrong oil was probably installed.

This statement above sounds correct. However, I've changed the oil on my CRD 4 times now and it takes approximately 5 - 7 days to turn black. This is with 50 highway miles per day on average. It runs clean for about 2 days, then starts turning amber colored around day 3, then turns darker until about 5 to 7 days have passed - at that point it's solid black. I use Mobile 1 5W-40 CI4 diesel rated oil. No idea why it doesn't turn black almost immediately. But my CRD has never been a smoker when running correctly - maybe that has something to do with it.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:54 pm

Have a gut hunch that this was probably your first oil change (6K miles) as you just found out it's over 100 bucks at the dealer. Take Joe Romas recomendation, Wallyworld for 5W40 Rotella and a premuim NAPA filter. Get a box of latex exam gloves while you are there. That oil will get nasty black, as with all diesels, and watch where you drain it because it will stain everything it touches. Also keep in mind that the 0W40 the dealer used is not a very good oil for a high-soot loading diesel application like this one. Thus, don't push the length of the OCI's if you keep running it. One thing you can do is make sure your soot production is minimized by using better quality fuels, fuel additives (such as biodiesel), and make sure you don't have CAC hoses full of that $7/qt motor oil. With those precautions, I can atleast see the dipstick marks through oil for the first 1K miles or so.

GMsKJ · **Posted:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:10 pm

This is just a conversation here, I'm not trying to find an argument with anyone...

I am aware of carbon buildup in diesel oil. This is a new 2006 CRD with now 7000 miles on it. My question is whether or not after 100 miles should the oil be jet black. The oil level is also below the MIN mark on the stick.

The oil was passed due a change because of dealer ignorance. Not my ignorance. Between my daughter and myself calling 2 different dealerships in the area, it took 2 weeks for either of them to quote us a price for an oil change at their respective garages. First my local dealer where I purchased the vehicle. They didn't know and was guessing that it would be about $90. This was our initial phone call. We then called another dealer 10 miles away and they said that they had 2 CRD's on the lot and that they were not sure but they would look into it. We called them back a day later and they said it would be about $40-$45. Work schedules and such put our oil change plans on delay. I stopped into my local dealer (3 blocks from the house) and face to face asked the service manager if they had figured out the cost for an oil change on a Liberty CRD. He said that it would be about $40. O'kay-fine, when can I get it in? not for 3-4 days? We'll drop it off the key in the night drop box Thursday.

I filled out the key envelope for work to be performed: "Recall Notice and an oil change. Quoted to me at about $40" I also checked the box to be notified of any repairs over $50 and signed the bottom of the envelope.

Friday evening, How much is the invoice? $103. BULLSH!T !! No phone call, I was quoted $40-$45 by 2 dealers, It took literally all day for them to finish the thing. I wasn't trying to get away with anything. I know about the initial $90 guess quote but after 2 dealers said it would only be $40 then so be it. (And yes I know what synthetic oil costs and do you know that bought in bulk form it is cheaper? hense the $40 price I figured.)
*** 2 DEALER SERVICE DEPARTMENTS QUOTED ME $40-$45 SPECIFICALLY FOR A "06 LIBERTY CRD" ***

GMsKJ · **Posted:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:16 pm

I was typing out the reply prior to reading the consecutive replies. Thanks for the "oil 101" and the suggestions.

Yes, This is the first oil change. Overdue by almost 1000 miles. I bought this truck in March of this year and I drive a service van so this CRD isn't a 5 day a week to and from work vehicle. (if it really weighs into the equation"

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:35 pm

GMsKJ wrote:

I was typing out the reply prior to reading the consecutive replies. Thanks for the "oil 101" and the suggestions.

Yes, This is the first oil change. Overdue by almost 1000 miles. I bought this truck in March of this year and I drive a service van so this CRD isn't a 5 day a week to and from work vehicle. (if it really weighs into the equation"

A short lesson in CRD math:

6.4qts (7qts) of Mobil 1, 0W40 synthetic $49
Mopar oil filter $17
30 min labor for a tech that's never touched a CRD $37
Total bill $103

Look on your face when you got the bill, Priceless

Lesson #2, wait untill you take it in for the 12K service when the axle fluids and transfer case are due. Add @ $400 to the oil change.

Just a suggestion, keep your tools handy. You will also need 8mm and 10mm hex key sockets for the various drain & fill plugs.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:42 pm

GMsKJ wrote:

The oil level is also below the MIN mark on the stick.

It's most likely below the MIN mark because the oil is in your intercooler. If you get a chance, take a 5/16 nutdriver and remove the CAC hose from the Turbo to the intercooler. Will guarantee it is completely coated with motor oil (should be bright red silicone lined). By now the 3" discharge hose on the other side of the intercooler is probably just as bad.

litton · **Posted:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:24 pm

Wasn't there some discusion about the dipstick being really inaccurate?

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:10 pm

One thing you might want to do next time...but hard to make a dealer do is make sure the engine is a little warm so the oil will flow a little better...and...make them wait for about 7-8 minutes to let ALL the old oil drain completely.

This is why it is better to find a way to do the change yourself or find a GOOD Jiify Lube type place and let them know of your concerns. If you get a Fumoto oil plug...then you won't need any tools to remove the oil drain plug...it makes it much easier.

The Shell Rotella CJ-4+ rated (new formula) will keep soot suspended in smaller sized particles than most. Amsoil is about to come out with a new formula too.

Soon enuff I am goping to try to find a remote location for an oil filter...if I can find room somewhere...to run dual oil fliters. Adding some fuel additives will also help with soot control.

naturist · **Posted:** Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:14 am

GMsKJ wrote:

This is just a conversation here, I'm not trying to find an argument with anyone...

GM, I'm sorry if I was unclear in my original reply. I'm trying to say I think you were over-reacting on the basis of the oil being black. I did not address the other issues, but I will say that the level being a tad low on the dipstick in the instance of this particular vehicle is also no sign of error/scam on the part of the folks with whom you took issue, as there've been a number of messages on this forum about how inaccurate the dip stick is.

Factors known to make the oil black: (1) it's a diesel, they make soot -- check; (2) it's a diesel, high compression makes for blowby -- check; (3) EGR, pumps sooty exhaust back into the intake -- check; (4) incomplete or non-existant drainage of old oil -- uh, maybe, but could go either way, see 1-3 above.

I wasn't trying to make an argument out of it, just trying to interrupt an appearant melt-down in progress with a splash of cold reality.

cerich · **Posted:** Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:20 am

GMsKJ wrote:

I was typing out the reply prior to reading the consecutive replies. Thanks for the "oil 101" and the suggestions.

Yes, This is the first oil change. Overdue by almost 1000 miles. I bought this truck in March of this year and I drive a service van so this CRD isn't a 5 day a week to and from work vehicle. (if it really weighs into the equation"

It isn't overdue unless you are on the HD maint. schedule, 12,500 miles for non HD use.

Some CRD's have a dipstick that is not very accurate. DC has this info in their system (that it occurs, not which CRD's). In those CRD's the dipstik can be off by quite a bit. The trick is to fill with 6.4qts of oil, more than that to bring to the "Full" line and the CRD just eats the excess into the CAC.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:42 am

RFCRD wrote:

GMsKJ wrote:

I was typing out the reply prior to reading the consecutive replies. Thanks for the "oil 101" and the suggestions.

Yes, This is the first oil change. Overdue by almost 1000 miles. I bought this truck in March of this year and I drive a service van so this CRD isn't a 5 day a week to and from work vehicle. (if it really weighs into the equation"

A short lesson in CRD math:

6.4qts (7qts) of Mobil 1, 0W40 synthetic $49
Mopar oil filter $17
30 min labor for a tech that's never touched a CRD $37
Total bill $103

Look on your face when you got the bill, Priceless

Lesson #2, wait untill you take it in for the 12K service when the axle fluids and transfer case are due. Add @ $400 to the oil change.

Just a suggestion, keep your tools handy. You will also need 8mm and 10mm hex key sockets for the various drain & fill plugs.

This is why I always bought:

6.5 qts. Rotella oil at Wal-Mart $30
Purolator oil filter at Advance $8
Did the oil change myself $0
Total ---------------------------- $38

That's a whole lot better than $103 isn't it?

And, I've been around diesels all my life and every single one I've ever seen will turn the oil jet black as soon as you hit the key and start it...literally. And some of those engines had hundreds of thousands of miles on them. It's just the nature of the beast.

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:07 pm

To put it simply, if you want your oil change done right and for the best price....do it yourself. I have owned several diesels and all of them have black oil as soon as you start them and run them for a couple of mins. This is totally normal for Diesel engines. Also, this is why people who want extended oil change intervals do used oil analysis....because unlike a gasonline engine you can't tell the condition of the oil just by pulling the dipstick.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:13 pm

LibertyCRD wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

GMsKJ wrote:

I was typing out the reply prior to reading the consecutive replies. Thanks for the "oil 101" and the suggestions.

Yes, This is the first oil change. Overdue by almost 1000 miles. I bought this truck in March of this year and I drive a service van so this CRD isn't a 5 day a week to and from work vehicle. (if it really weighs into the equation"

A short lesson in CRD math:

6.4qts (7qts) of Mobil 1, 0W40 synthetic $49
Mopar oil filter $17
30 min labor for a tech that's never touched a CRD $37
Total bill $103

Look on your face when you got the bill, Priceless

Lesson #2, wait untill you take it in for the 12K service when the axle fluids and transfer case are due. Add @ $400 to the oil change.

Just a suggestion, keep your tools handy. You will also need 8mm and 10mm hex key sockets for the various drain & fill plugs.

This is why I always bought:

6.5 qts. Rotella oil at Wal-Mart $30
Purolator oil filter at Advance $8
Did the oil change myself $0
Total ---------------------------- $38

That's a whole lot better than $103 isn't it?

And, I've been around diesels all my life and every single one I've ever seen will turn the oil jet black as soon as you hit the key and start it...literally. And some of those engines had hundreds of thousands of miles on them. It's just the nature of the beast.

Have a theory that dealers hate the CRD because the OCI's are double that of a gasser and the cost is beyond the pain tolerance of many owners. At the rate I'm going, would be getting the oil changed @ every 3rd warranty claim visit. I'm past the "screw-it" point, will just take care of it myself.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:36 pm

I don't think I ever seen a diesel that didn't turn new oil black 30<>60 seconds after starting the engine in the 50 years I have been around them. :shock:

Bgame · **Posted:** Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:02 am

oldnavy wrote:

I don't think I ever seen a diesel that didn't turn new oil black 30<>60 seconds after starting the engine in the 50 years I have been around them. :shock:

Try checking the oil after 60 seconds on some 120 hp tractors.... It is BLACK.... I know I have 3 of them.

gsbrockman · **Posted:** Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:00 pm

oldnavy wrote:

I don't think I ever seen a diesel that didn't turn new oil black 30<>60 seconds after starting the engine in the 50 years I have been around them. :shock:

Drive up to KY, OldNavy, and I'll let you check out the oil that comes out of my 2003 Dodge RAM 2500 CTD (305/555). At 8k drain intervals and Rotella-T 5W40, it still looks great. I can hardly see much color change at all within the first 3500---4000 miles. The Dodge CTD's of the 325/610 variety turn their oil black soon after a change......I attribute it to the 3 injection events vs. the two on my 305/555. The new 6.7L CTD's w/350--650 and five injection events & EGR will be interesting to see, for sure.

Each time I've changed the oil in my CRD, it's been horribly black. My OCI's are around 5,700 miles and it "looks" better since I switched to the 5W40 Rotella-T. At least I know the oil is doing it's job.

GMsKJ, I'd not get too excited about the oil color......diesels are very different than gassers. If you're worried about the color, invest in some oil analysis through Blackstone Laboratories and send off a sample each oil change.

Greg

Black oil after less than 100 miles. (Long rant warning)

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