Going with the WVO conversion

japerry · **Posted:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:40 pm

There is another threat about WVO conversion, asking about it, but this one is a little different. I found a kit, and basically want to see some real data on pros/cons to conversion.

I currently run a MB 300SD on 100% WVO, thanks to Bovie and the guys at GreaseOn. This works pretty well, so I went out to search for another solution for my 2005 Jeep CRD Limited

Golden Fuel Systems: http://www.goldenfuelsystems.com/ aka http://www.greasel.com/

They've been converting CRDs for over a year now, and both the owner and his wife own CRDs. He hasn't had any problems, and says nor have any of his customers. They've converted ~15 of them now, with no problems. By talking with his local service manager, they will warranty the Jeep as long as it makes sense that it wasn't the WVO that caused the problem. (Getting them to not Knee-Jerk react can very per dealer--but explaining BEFORE the conversion will help) The kits cost $1800 ($3500 if they install it).

I'm going to talk to the dealership tomorrow and probably order the kit the end of this week. It includes a split rear fuel tank, and starts up and shuts down on diesel. Once up to temp, the CRD does just fine with WVO and, according to greasel, doesn't/hasn't clogged injectors.

They also sell a computer module that plugs in to give better fuel mixture math to the engine for WVO. This causes better gas mileage and no smoke, as you'd see on most grease cars.

The only thing I'm a little concerned with is the lack of multiple sources for the kit. Its just this company, and although they claim it works great, I have no other 3rd party data to back it up. On the otherhand, everyone who claims it will damage fuel systems have no data to back up their claim either. So does anyone here have data pro/con about conversion to WVO?

pmkatz · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:36 pm **Posts:** 11

I have the Greasel (Golden Fuel Systems) kit installed in my 05 CRD. I had it installed by one of their affiliates in Oberlin OH (Full Circle Fuels). The installation was done about 2.5 months ago at just under 36K miles. I now have about 40K on the vehicle.

All in all it has been a good experience but I still consider it a bit of an experiment. Mileage and performance have been identical to the time prior to the conversion. I have had EGR Valve / Air Flow Control Valve problems but this problem appears to be affecting many CRD's regardless of fuel type. The only difference is that the dealer I was using wants nothing to do with working on the car now so I am in the process of learning to do a lot more of my own maintenance and repair work and will probably be looking for an independent mechanic that is willing to work with something a bit unusual.

You can't beat the cost of WVO, it is completely renewable, and it's NOT from the Middle East!!!!

If you go ahead with the conversion I would love to keep in touch regarding common issues / problems!

Good Luck!

Pete

japerry · **Posted:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:09 pm

Thanks Pete!

I'm going to install the kit myself. I was thinking of having someone do it, but since a few of my buddies want to lift the Jeep and put bigger wheels on, we're just going to do it all in one swoop. And doing the Mercedes gives me a little bit of an idea of what to expect.

I haven't had any EGR issues yet. I'm sorta worried about it. I'm going to bring it into the dealer to fix a check engine light I'm having (Fuel mixture error, it came on after putting in B99 and won't go off). That said, have you had any check engine light issues related to fuel?

pmkatz · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:36 pm **Posts:** 11

I have gotten a couple P0093 codes - "Fuel System Leak" supposedly this usually means there is a loose gas cap.......I haven't gotten to the bottom of this one yet.

Jeger · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:54 am

I like to see people experimenting like this, Keep it UP! And I would also like to know more about the computer module. What does it plug into who makes it etc.

Thanks

s_allcroft · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:00 am

Hi

I currently have the check engine light on. It came on after I filled the tank. I stopped by the dealer, THEY SWEAR that its from a LOOSE GAS CAP. Told me to drive for several days and that it will shut off.

Apparently the Liberty has a pump that pressureizes the fuel system, including the fuel tank. And if cap is loose it will give the error. And the dealer says that it takes a few days for it to shut off. Also apparently the same thing happens on Gasser Libertys

chrismc · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:07 am

Wow, great thread! I inquired about Greasel's system for the KJ around the time I bought mine (March? I think). This is far more information than I ever got out of them. Greasel only has a "mediocre" reputation in the biodiesel/wvo community, so I was a bit concerned. I haven't read anything "bad" about them, but noone seems to have glowing reviews either. Additionally, the $3500 price tag is insane. I'm glad to see they will now let you do a self-install and save $1700 bucks. Its still not cheap, but I suppose its a lot of work building a custom two-chamber fuel tank. They're located just a couple hours from me, so one of these days I plan to go check them out. I'm really interested in hearing more about the computer module for WVO...

Do you know if the diesel/WVO switchover is automated or manual? If it has automatic switchover, that would make the price more reasonable. Also, do you know if it has a "shutdown timer" to keep the engine running if you abruptly stop without switching back to petroD?

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:26 am

I just worry about the ajenda of the two posters above...they both join in August 2006 and then start a thread on greasel and banter back and forth...seems a little suspicious in my book.

I know these systems can and do work but the ramifications of completely voiding a warranty make it a more expensive proposition than I am willing to pay.

offroadsubaru · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:34 am

I am somewhat skeptical about the dealer being so "kosher" with the WVO conversion. From several anectdotes about TDIs that I have read -- a lot of dealers switch straight to "it's biodiesel - can't cover it" if an owner experiences nearly any kind of engine problem while running any more than a B5 mix. And that's with biodiesel -- which is a no-mods replacement for #2 diesel.

Case in point: look at what happened to this poor guy in WI who had a runaway engine that blew:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=139673

Not related to the biodiesel in any way, but no warranty coverage.

Jeger · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:11 am

If they are trying to sell something I dont think the scheme will work, there are too many good people here that will point others in the right direction. I would have to see some pretty hard evidence..independent testing...or something to even think about doing a conversion of this type, and that would only be after the warranty is up and the vehicle is paid off. I like to see OTHERS being the guinea pig not me.

But I am still interested in the module mentioned, especially if it includes a shutdown timer. If it does that then it could possibly do more than just control rail pressure or injection timing.

pmkatz · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:36 pm **Posts:** 11

To Darby's concerns:

I have nothing to do with Greasel and simply thought Jeger could benefit from my experience. My Warranty is over and I would not have made this conversion if it wasn't. As I said in my post, I consider this an experiment and would not recommend anyone try without going into it with their eyes WIDE open:

-Dealer's don't want to deal with these cars (as I also mentioned in my original post).
-Repairs may be expensive because of the custom nature of the vehicle and the research required to repair potential problems.
-There is significant effort involved in collecting and filtering oil (but if you care about this concept it's worth it and is a way that YOU, as an individual, can make a difference).
-Your vehicle may have limited resale value if things don't go real well (then again, if things do go well, it could have a high resale value).

These things being said, I am happy with the conversion so far and hope to get many miles on clean, cheap, renewable energy but by no means would I say the verdict is in or that this conversion is without risk.

For those of you interested, there is a pretty good book called "Sliding Home" by Ray Holan that gives the ins and outs of converting your diesel to run on oil. It compares and contrasts many of the kits and systems on the market today but does not really endorse any of them over others.

As to the "shutdown timer" some of you mention:

These are available (I think there is one called "Buzz Off") but I do not have one. This is not actually a timer but a warning buzzer that will sound if you turn the ignition off while the fuel source is set to oil instead of diesel. If you do accidentally shutdown while still on oil, I have been told that you can get things moving again by using a halogen light bulb or heat gun to warm everything up suffuciently to start the vehicle.

Pete

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:13 pm

s_allcroft wrote:

Hi

I currently have the check engine light on. It came on after I filled the tank. I stopped by the dealer, THEY SWEAR that its from a LOOSE GAS CAP. Told me to drive for several days and that it will shut off.

Apparently the Liberty has a pump that pressureizes the fuel system, including the fuel tank. And if cap is loose it will give the error. And the dealer says that it takes a few days for it to shut off. Also apparently the same thing happens on Gasser Libertys

HORSECRAP!!!! :shock:

Your dealer doesn't know the first bloody thing about a CRD if he's giving you that line, or he just doesn't want to be bothered servicing your vehicle.

The CRD has a VACUUM fuel system, the fuel pump on the front of the engine has to suck fuel from the tank, up thru the fuel filter, and to the pump itself, from the VENTED fuel tank. You could run all day with the fuel cap hanging loose by it's cord and it would never throw a check engine light.

If you're getting a fuel related CEL on a CRD, it's most likely due to an air leak in the fuel lines or a clogged fuel filter, such that the pump can't get enough fuel and maintain the correct pressure in the high pressure rail.

The loose gas cap deal is ONLY repeat ONLY applicable to gassers.

s_allcroft · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:19 pm

Ok thanks................

KJMedic · **Posted:** Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:28 pm

Dealer tried that fuel cap line with me. Told me to tighten the Cap and light would go off, sure enough it did go off but guess what it came back on the next day and then it needed an EGR valve.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:04 am

Just a little info to back up my "horsecrap" call -

I've been thru some fuel related problems with mine. The P0093 code is "Contaminated Fuel". Someone posted an explanation from a website that explains what causes different OBDII codes on another thread. Basically, this code is thrown by the ECM when the fuel pressure in the high pressure rail is more than a certain percentage lower than what the ECM thinks it should be. And the most likely cause for this is the low and high pressure fuel pumps not being able to obtain sufficient fuel to maintain pressure due to either a clogged/water saturated fuel filter and/or an air leak in the fuel supply line causing the pump to lose suction.
Therefore, since they consider a clogged fuel filter to be the most likely cause, it's displayed by the ECM as "Contaminated Fuel".

An aside, if you've ever experienced what feels like a mild misfire condition or a mild version of tranny stutter, try venting and repriming your fuel filter. If you get air out of the filter and the condition disappears for a while and then reappears, you've got a slow air leak somewhere in the fuel supply side. Have the tech check your hose connections, banjo fittings, and fuel filter.

s_allcroft · **Posted:** Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:57 am

OK... Its now in for EGR!!!!

Nice 24,800 TQ etc..

27,300 EGR!!!

japerry · **Posted:** Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:26 am

wow lots of replies! heh sorry for the long post below, but I think this covers responses to I think everyone posting.

I haven't had an EGR problem yet, then again i've only had it for a month

As for the posts thinking I'm a greasel troll/spammer. I'm sorry for the recent join, but let me offer some background:

Back in May '06 I finally had some money to do something abuot the rising costs of fuel. I lined up a GREAT mexican restaurant in the Seattle area, and converted an old 1983 MB 300SD to 100% Veggie. After driving that for a few months, I realized that old cars suck. I had a 1999 Chevy Cavalier, and while this car is somewhat mediocre, it had -0- problems and drove like a new car. The only problem with it was it ran on gas. So the end of July came and I decided I could buy a new car. I didn't want a brand new MB, I don't really like VWs, and since my brother and friends go offroading, the Jeep seemed like a good fit (I'll be posting about lift kits and tires here soon!)

The main reason I bought the Jeep was to get it running on some alternative fuel. I've been going back and forth between biodiesel and wvo. I like WVO because I can do all the work from pickup to fuelup and not have to worry about making a small meth-like lab in my garage. After talking to the guy at Greasel, he seemed very informative, although I will admit there was a small instinctual feeling that something might be shady, thats why I needed to find some other users independant of his company.

For those wonderng what the kit comes with, it has the custom fuel tank, coolant sump heater, hoses/pumps to get to the front, switches to turn it from diesel to veggie. I'm going to probably add the buzzer and veg-therm from greasecar.com. The important question I need to get answered from the greasel folks is if there is a thermostat that tells you when you can switch to veggie. The kit does NOT have an auto shutoff or turn on. I wonder how hard that would be to fabricate?

I'm hoping to goto the dealer this week and I'll report back what i get as far as warranty and conversion.

Oh and when this is all done, if anyone is in the Seatle/VancouverBC area and wanna go wheelin' with a car smelling like deepfried mexican chips, call me up

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:32 am

You should consider Elsbett (www.elsbett.com) when looking at kits. They are a German company with the most experience in the VO arena. And they have plenty of common rail diesels (and libbys) under their belt. They warentee the engine using VO (but not WVO) and modify injectors to avoid coking. Usually they have a single tank system (start and stop on VO), but for the Libby they recommend a two tank system.

Downside is that they are have few reps here in the US and don't warantee use of WASTE VO.

Just more fuel for thought....

chrismc · **Posted:** Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:08 pm

I attented one of Girl Mark's biodiesel workshops (she's pretty much the "inventor" of homebrew bioD in the US) this past weekend and had the opportunity to talk to a lot of people that have first-hand knowledge of biodiesel and WVO conversions.

I would steer FAR, FAR AWAY from anything made by Greasel. WVO approaches the same viscosity as diesel fuel around 160-170 degrees (it may actually be much higher depending on who you talk to). Greasel's systems are not capable of getting the fuel nearly that warm. One person who bought (and then ditched) a Greasel kit measured the WVO hitting the injection pump at 140 degrees (in the summer, after the engine was fully warmed up). Low viscosity fuel may be useable (but still not good) in an older, lower-fuel-pressure engine, but will not work well in the CRD. The WVO will "glop" out of in the injector instead of spraying as it should, and you will get incomplete combustion leading to many problems all ending in engine failure. Additionally, the lower viscosity will put far more strain on injection-system components.

Also, the two-chamber-tank system may not be good for long drives, due to heat-bleed from from the WVO to the diesel (hot diesel is not good). Also, repeatedly heating and cooling fuel dramatically increases the amount of condensation (water) in the tank and fuel (think cold glass in hot weather, and you have the inside of the fuel tank)

Some WVO-conversion companies that make GOOD products are Elsbett, Frybrid, and PlantDrive although Frybrid is known for having absolutely horrible customer service, with Elsbett not much better (they're in Germany).

I'm going to stick with BioD for now, and maybe do a component-based WVO system in the future (not from Greasel). The best situation would be with a separate WVO tank in the already-limited cargo space.

japerry · **Posted:** Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:18 pm

I have Emailed Elsbett but failed to receive any response from them. I'm going to assume that they won't be a viable option for me.

Thanks chris for the comments about Greasel. I myself have seen heat issues as well related to greasel, which is why I went with greaseon for my fuel system in the Mercedes. It uses a looped fuel system that does not heat the gas tank, but rather the liquid coming right out of the tank. It also has a Veg therm which electrically heats the oil up to 180+ F right before the IP. This seems to work pretty well in the Mercedes, and I was thinking of modding the Greasel kit to do something similar. However, unlike the Mercedes, I think dual tank is a must have for WVO and a CRD

I probably should call up frybrid and talk with them about ideas as well. I haven't seen them convert a CRD so I didn't know what their experience was with them. Since I live in seattle, they seem like a logical kit producer to work with.

I think if I can use a dual tank system with heating occurring right as oil leaves the tank, this might be a good idea. Add in the looped setup near the IP, and I think we have a solution.

I thought about Biodiesel as an option, but it looks way too messy and precise to do on a homebrew basis. I know some will probably argue with that, but I've heard some horror stories from small setups that can't produce decent biodiesel, and getting equipment and material to make it standards compliant would be too cost prohibitive.

Going with the WVO conversion

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