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CRD - No Go for '07
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12567		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  dmv [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  CRD - No Go for '07
Just got this reply from DC.

"No, the Liberty CRD will definitely not be available for 2007. The 2.8L engine can not compete with the new emissions standards that will be put in place next year. "

DMV
Author:  Cowcatcher [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
I heard from a Jetta TDI guy that VW's solution to this issue was to build a bunch of extra '06's before the deadline and market them as '06 models!
Author:  cerich [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
that would mean that VW was making a profit on the GOLF/Passat diesels, DC is not and even stopped production of the 06 CRD early.

If DC has choosen to do the same and stockpile it would just mean more money lost....
Author:  dmv [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Cowcatcher wrote:
I heard from a Jetta TDI guy that VW's solution to this issue was to build a bunch of extra '06's before the deadline and market them as '06 models!


I was told by my local VW dealership earlier this year when I took delivery of my TDI Beetle that VW was going to continue TDI production right up to 12/31, then begin retooling for '07 guidlines.

DMV
Author:  SCKJCRD [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm just glad I got mine!
Author:  oldnavy [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
Something sounds fishey here, VM says their 2.8L can't meet '07 EPA. My question is why not? It has the same type injectors, EGR, CCV, glow plugs, DOHC engine and electronic's available with only real difference being V6 with all aluminum block, so something else is involved here. My guess is there is no place to properly hang the particulate traps (soot scrubbers) under the Jeep as the only reason.

I have read where the new MB engine is a no rebuild engine, but I doubt that is true. The traps or some sort of shifting of the product line seems to me to be the only real reason behind the change. The local dealer says they have been told Dakota is going to have an MB diesel engine in the truck for '07 model. We will see I guess before much longer.
Author:  Ranger1 [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
From the earlier post, it looks as if DC is saying the 2.8L CRD won't meeting 07 EPA emissions, not VM Motori. The original DC quotes for dropping the R428 stated that they could not make a business case for outfitting the R428 with 07 compliant emissions addons.
Technically, there isn't any reason the R428 couldn't have a NOx trap or SCR system retrotiffed to it. I suspect the high warranty return costs, the image the CRD was generating and their own in house diesel engine capability had as much with their decision to drop the 2.8L CRD as the press fluff they put out.


It also works out nicely for them that the only light duty diesel from DC/Jeep is now a $30K andup priced Jeep. The V6 diesel doesn't have replacable cylinder liners, but it does have cast iron cylinders sleeves in an all aluminum block. It can probably be bored out at least once for a rebuild I would guess. It just can't be rebuilt almost indefinately like the R428 can.


I think Jeep will have to have a perfect launch of the 07 Jeep V6 CRD for them to succeed in the US market. They cannot afford another PR debacle. I hope they pull it off.
Author:  RFCRD [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
oldnavy wrote:
I have read where the new MB engine is a no rebuild engine, but I doubt that is true. The traps or some sort of shifting of the product line seems to me to be the only real reason behind the change. The local dealer says they have been told Dakota is going to have an MB diesel engine in the truck for '07 model. We will see I guess before much longer.

I read the same thing, just can't recall where. Probably not rebuildable because you could buy a whole new truck for the cost of rebuilding a MB diesel. :roll:
Author:  rs4mtnitro [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ranger1 wrote:
From the earlier post, it looks as if DC is saying the 2.8L CRD won't meeting 07 EPA emissions, not VM Motori. The original DC quotes for dropping the R428 stated that they could not make a business case for outfitting the R428 with 07 compliant emissions addons.
Technically, there isn't any reason the R428 couldn't have a NOx trap or SCR system retrotiffed to it. I suspect the high warranty return costs, the image the CRD was generating and their own in house diesel engine capability had as much with their decision to drop the 2.8L CRD as the press fluff they put out.


It also works out nicely for them that the only light duty diesel from DC/Jeep is now a $30K andup priced Jeep. The V6 diesel doesn't have replacable cylinder liners, but it does have cast iron cylinders sleeves in an all aluminum block. It can probably be bored out at least once for a rebuild I would guess. It just can't be rebuilt almost indefinately like the R428 can.


I think Jeep will have to have a perfect launch of the 07 Jeep V6 CRD for them to succeed in the US market. They cannot afford another PR debacle. I hope they pull it off.


D/C owns detroit diesel which owns vm diesel.
Author:  Pablo [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  07 no go
Also... keep in mind that the redesign is on for 08-- why redo the emissions for only one year (07) before having to re-engineer it again? It would be alot of money spent for little gain. I think they will wait for 08 and then we might see something.
Author:  oldnavy [ Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 07 no go
Pablo wrote:
Also... keep in mind that the redesign is on for 08-- why redo the emissions for only one year (07) before having to re-engineer it again? It would be alot of money spent for little gain. I think they will wait for 08 and then we might see something.
That is basically what VW has done for US market.
Author:  Ranger1 [ Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
D/C owns detroit diesel which owns vm diesel


Last time I looked, DD owned 49% of VM Motori, Penski group owned 51%. Unless DC owns all of VM Motori, I would think the price differential they have to pay is substanstial over an in-house built engine. I remember a quote from Zieter in the early days of the CRD, stating that the R428 diesel cost approximately $1000 more than the Liberty's V6. The extra engine cost was to be subsidized - at that point, DC was still concerned that the CRD wouldn't be accepted. In early February 05, the CRD option on mine was $1160, but it also included the 545RFE transmission, ABS brakes and Select Trak.
Author:  tvine [ Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
First, it is my understanding that DC bought Detroit from Penske Group (I could be wrong about this).

Second, it seems likely that the R428 could be made compliant, but the cost of demonstrating compliance is quite large.

Third, I agree that the Liberty CRD is too down market and DC wants the higher profit margin of the Grand Cherokee. I believe that the CRD was a marketing test. I am glad that I got one, I missed out on the Turbine Car test back in the 60's.

Fourth, DC seems to be focusing the VM Motori engines on the European and Asian markets and the more upscale MB engines on the US market.

Just my thoughts, I could be 180 out.
Author:  oldnavy [ Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
tvine wrote:
First, it is my understanding that DC bought Detroit from Penske Group (I could be wrong about this).

Second, it seems likely that the R428 could be made compliant, but the cost of demonstrating compliance is quite large.

Third, I agree that the Liberty CRD is too down market and DC wants the higher profit margin of the Grand Cherokee. I believe that the CRD was a marketing test. I am glad that I got one, I missed out on the Turbine Car test back in the 60's.

Fourth, DC seems to be focusing the VM Motori engines on the European and Asian markets and the more upscale MB engines on the US market.

Just my thoughts, I could be 180 out.
You know that does make a lot of sence, with their focus of markets. Because I still am hearing a MB engine in the Dakota, but to use the up scale MB engines seems strange to me. To me the CRD 2.8L is an ideal engine for the Dakota, but we all know how Detroit listens to its market base.
Author:  retmil46 [ Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
In a way, I imagine they did listen to their market base. Remember, Detroit's direct customers are the dealerships, not John or Jane Q. Public. I would imagine with what appears to be a high percentage of the CRD's coming back repeatedly for warranty work, not to mention the ball joint and emissions recall, that the dealers were raising quite a squawk behind closed doors. I imagine that had a part to play as well, regardless of the emissions cover story.

And that might have something to do also with pushing an MB engine in the Dakota. In the dealer's eyes, the VM engine could be viewed as "damaged goods" and have a poor rep with them from their experience with the CRD, and want nothing to do with any other vehicle that has the same engine and emissions setup, in their eyes another warranty nightmare waiting to happen.
Author:  Desert_Busa [ Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Any idea on what diesels will be available next year besides 3/4 ton trucks? I have seen '07 vw touregs on ebay.
Author:  oldnavy [ Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:37 am ]
Post subject: 
I think that would only be partly true, the dealers with major diesel sales like our local dealer have only had a positive experience. Of the dozen or so sold they have only had 1 EGR failure, and 1 EGR FCV failure (mine), no tranny problems on any of the CRD's other then the filter replacement on mine as of last week. I think the reliability problems here are related to things like poor dealer service from dealerships that were not experienced with diesels and their quirks, poor understanding of the vehicles by the owners as to how to check fluids determine a proper fuel sourse, and a combonation of the above.
.
They were trying to figure out a CRD at the shop last week that had been stolen then driven into a river. They had everything working except the tranny. :roll:
Author:  RFCRD [ Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
oldnavy wrote:
I think the reliability problems here are related to things like poor dealer service from dealerships that were not experienced with diesels and their quirks, poor understanding of the vehicles by the owners as to how to check fluids determine a proper fuel sourse, and a combonation of the above.

This is true, and truely unfortunate. I can sense the "cold shoulder" attitude with the DC dealers in the area when asked @ servicing a CRD. As if they know there are general issues and they either run really well or really crappy with DC doing little more than stonewalling repairs. The ones that screw-up significantly raise the stress level for everyone involved before they get staightened out. I do feel fortunate that my dealer has some experienced diesel techs and atleast looks at minor modifications (such as a Provent) with an open mind, understanding that CRD is far from perfect. Give it a few years, the techs who can figure out the quirks and make these work will be worth gold to a repair shop owner.
Author:  oldnavy [ Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
RFCRD wrote:
oldnavy wrote:
I think the reliability problems here are related to things like poor dealer service from dealerships that were not experienced with diesels and their quirks, poor understanding of the vehicles by the owners as to how to check fluids determine a proper fuel sourse, and a combonation of the above.

This is true, and truely unfortunate. I can sense the "cold shoulder" attitude with the DC dealers in the area when asked @ servicing a CRD. As if they know there are general issues and they either run really well or really crappy with DC doing little more than stonewalling repairs. The ones that screw-up significantly raise the stress level for everyone involved before they get staightened out. I do feel fortunate that my dealer has some experienced diesel techs and atleast looks at minor modifications (such as a Provent) with an open mind, understanding that CRD is far from perfect. Give it a few years, the techs who can figure out the quirks and make these work will be worth gold to a repair shop owner.
Yep my buddy has built his own 3 bay garage with lift and is trying to set up a diesel clientel
Author:  tvine [ Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Another thought on the CRD VM Motori engine.

Americans do not generally consider Italian Engineering to be on a par with German Engineering. That may influence the decision to use the MB engine in the US; marketing.

Of course nothing could be further from the truth, VM is in Cento, just a few miles from Modena. Anyone who has ever worked on a Ferrari understands that Italian Engineering is second to none, especially in the engine department.
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