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A good day for the CRD
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14732		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Serendipity [ Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  A good day for the CRD
Hi all,

I am a regular here, but posting under a pseudonym because I don't want this info easily tracked back to me by DC.

My wife called me today just as I was ready to leave work. The check engine light had come on for the first time ever on our CRD with 15,000 miles. :roll:
Never been back to the dealer with it. Only complaints have been mileage and smoke. Mileage too low, smoke too much.

Told my wife to drive it on home. Tried and failed to retrieve codes with the key. Drove it around some. Noticed it was not smoking as much, and it seemed more responsive. Noticed it stopped with a shake now, but not bad - like most any old tech diesel. Opened the hood and noticed a high pitch whine after turning the key off. Removed the hose from the EGR flow control valve and found it stuck open. Unable to move the butterfly at all. Unplugged the valve to stop the whine and protect the electrical system from further harm. Drove the thing around some more, and I absolutely love the way it is running.

If mileage is improved or the same, I will not be getting this fixed. I will live with the light or figure out a way to get it turned it off.
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
In the EGR thread before this one, we kinda discussed that "mod". I think there was a lot of info in that thread to look at. Keep us updated "Serendipity" ... nudge, nudge, wink, wink :wink:
Author:  Serendipity [ Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
So far so good. Anybody had the instrument cluster out yet? A certain light bulb needs to take a long vacation. 8)

Later:

Never mind on the instrument cluster. The backlights are replaceable, the rest are soldered in LEDs.
Don't want to open the cluster, so back to the drawing board...
Author:  RFCRD [ Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Serendipity wrote:
So far so good. Anybody had the instrument cluster out yet? A certain light bulb needs to take a long vacation. 8)

Before you start disconnecting stuff, you would be better served by taking this to a dealer and getting the codes read. There are litterally hundreds of faults that can illuminate a CEL on this model. One thing to consider should you require warranty service sometime in the future, the ECM records the CEL (including internal clock times) and DC will know how long you ran this with a CEL condition.

BTW, that high pitch whine you were hearing is normal. It's that butterfly (called an airflow control valve) running through it's normal duty cycle. It closes for a short time when the engine is first shut-off (to prevent after-run) and re-opens by an internal spring after a few seconds.
Author:  Serendipity [ Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Did you read the first post? The valve is totally stuck, and it is the best thing that could have happened - since it is in the open position. The noise is different than it used to be too. Little motor sitting there straining its guts out. I looked at and listened to the valve with the hose off back when it was healthy so I'd have a frame of reference. Since I can't get the key trick to retrieve the codes, I will be getting a scanner, but I don't need a dealer to tell me the thing is running better than it has in quite a while. Good point on the timestamp, but I'm going to run it this way for a while. With all the software problems they've had, they'd have to prove the light was on. There may be a way to clear all that anyway?
Author:  RFCRD [ Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
Serendipity wrote:
Did you read the first post? The valve is totally stuck, and it is the best thing that could have happened - since it is in the open position. The noise is different than it used to be too. Little motor sitting there straining its guts out. Since I can't get the key trick to retrieve the codes, I will be getting a scanner, but I don't need a dealer to tell me the thing is running better than it has in quite a while.

Not disputing that it won't run better with the flow control valve disabled in the wide open position. Many have experienced this when the internal gears grind and fail in open position. This valve is a high falure rate item and has likely caused you problems for some time.

Just a friendly reminder that the ECM in a modern diesel is also a black-box style recording device. DC will know exactly how long you have chosen to run it this way it the event that someday it shows up at a dealer needing warranty repairs. There are several sensitive and very pricey components interrelated to this system. Personally would not want to show DC/STAR a computer-logged history of owner neglect/abuse should something fail. It's your warranty, your checkbook and your choice. I wish you the best of luck whatever choice you make.
Author:  Serendipity [ Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yeah,

The recording fuctionality is worrisome, but they would have to prove that my actions damaged the engine. Worst case, the computer would have to be tested to ensure that it didn't rat me out. You ever heard of a megger?

I probably should take it to the dealer. After the horror stories here, I doubt I have the patience, and I'm sure I don't have the time. Thanks for the input.
Author:  Goglio704 [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:33 am ]
Post subject: 
This brings up a question I've wondered about too. Just how long does the ECM store fault codes? Is that part of the memory voliatle? The wife swears she has seen the light come on and go off, but she forgot to mention it.:roll: I've never seen it, and I can't get the key to retrieve the codes. Just wondering.





P.S. how do you spell voliatle anyway. Stupid non spelling computer...
Author:  dog_party [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:54 am ]
Post subject: 
volatile. :)

Good luck Serendipity. Keep us posted. Appropriate choice of pseudonym too. :lol:
Author:  Serendipity [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:37 am ]
Post subject: 
Have run about 350 miles now without a functional EGR FCV. Smoke is virtually gone, performance is better, and mileage is too soon to tell. I am not advocating that everybody unplug their FCV, but if your CRD smokes excessively, it might be worth checking out for diagnostic purposes.

Mine smoked more than any stock turbodiesel I have ever seen. It smoked from day one, but I think it did get worse recently. I would blow it out occasionally, but it would return fast. I used to think it was soot in the EGR system or Cat and normal for an EGR diesel, but now I think it was unburned fuel.

Along with watching for oil in the intake, I had been keeping an eye on the FCV to make sure it wasn't bound up. Have had the EHM for a long time now, and the EGR FCV didn't die from goo.

From what I've read, some people's CRDs smoke and get comparatively poor mileage, while other are the polar opposite. I think there can be a malfunction in this EGR system which doesn't throw codes until it is too late.
Author:  RFCRD [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:53 am ]
Post subject: 
Serendipity wrote:
Along with watching for oil in the intake, I had been keeping an eye on the FCV to make sure it wasn't bound up. Have had the EHM for a long time now, and the EGR FCV didn't die from goo.

From what I've read, some people's CRDs smoke and get comparatively poor mileage, while other are the polar opposite. I think there can be a malfunction in this EGR system which doesn't throw codes until it is too late.

They usually don't die from goo, the plastic internal control gears fail so the small electric motor either free-spins or binds and burns out. The replacment FCV supposidly has metal gears. The CEL is triggered by a valve position-indicator (potientiometer) in the internal gearing.

The other thing to consider is the control software is adjustible and it is possible that DC turned-down the sensitivity in one of the early '05 reflashes to keep the CEL from illuminating. Wouldn't change the way the valves perform, just what parameters are necessary to illuminate a CEL. (ie... No CEL = No warranty claim)
Author:  Serendipity [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:29 am ]
Post subject: 
That is my point with this. I think there can be a pretty serious malfunction which doesn't throw codes. A smoke ticket or emissions test failure would be the only reason most dealers would touch this problem. The authorities don't do either one around here.

P.S. I seem to have a signature malfunction. I have an 05 with no flashes.
Author:  Endurance [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
Amazing how many people know their stuff! I wanna check my intake for oil soot, and I would like to be able to find the EGR and if its stuck or not when it throws a CEL. How do I do that? Which whose?

Isnt the intake whose the BIG one that is on the right side of the radiator and goes to the right side of the engine? And it runs below the alternator.
Or is it the big one that comes from the air filter? Which one do I need to check?
Author:  Goglio704 [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
The hose on the driver's side ends at the EGR flow control valve. Pop the hose off and you will see the butterfly valve. It should be spring loaded to the open position. The actual EGR valve is deeper in, and I don't think there is any way to look at what it is doing.
Author:  RFCRD [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Endurance wrote:
Amazing how many people know their stuff! I wanna check my intake for oil soot, and I would like to be able to find the EGR and if its stuck or not when it throws a CEL. How do I do that? Which whose?

Isnt the intake whose the BIG one that is on the right side of the radiator and goes to the right side of the engine? And it runs below the alternator.
Or is it the big one that comes from the air filter? Which one do I need to check?

Start by dividing the mechanical issues: Oil in the Charged Air as one issue, EGR and Air Flow Control valves as another. The issues are interrelated but look at them separately.

1). Oily intake - Remove both Charged Air hoses. While they are off, plan on cleaning and inspecting (I use a dishwashing/bottle brush, b100 disolves the oil, and rinse clean with ether). Even if you have installed a Provent or a EHM, you may still find significant amounts of oil in the hoses.

2). ACV is located inside where the big Charged Air hose connects to the engine. You can't miss it, looks like a large choke plate from the base of a carburetor. With the engine off, this valve should be in the wide open position. The only time it closes is when the engine is first shut-off (springs open on it's own) and during moderate-load driving it partially closes to allow exhaust gas to port into the intake from the EGR plumbing. If the control gearing fails/sticks, it may not respond or respond as quickly as the computer wants thus it's out of sync with the EGR function, throwing a CEL. This is also likely the source of some of the bucking/stumbling drivability problems that are reported.

While you have the hose removed, you can wipe the area clean with a rag, bottle brush, solvent, etc....just make sure you don't leave any chunky stuff behind that can get sucked into the engine. If you are using ether (starting fluid) for a solvent, make sure it is completely dry and ventilated before replacing the hoses/starting the engine. Getting to the actual EGR valve is another issue and takes much more work.
Author:  Serendipity [ Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, I just filled up after running a full tank under normal conditions. With the flow control valve stuck full open, I just got the best mileage ever out of the CRD. It was right at 23MPG around town. During the summer I saw 21 tank after tank. It had dropped some lately, but I had blamed it on winter blend fuel. Don't know if the FCV was always hurting my mileage, or if by the time the engine got broke in the FCV was starting to hurt the mileage? I know it always smoked more than it does now.

I'm still undecided as to what to do. Even though I don't miss it, I am inclined to get the valve fixed in warranty, but I don't want any flashes or detuning. I won't bring it up if they don't. If they flash it anyway, I guess InMotion would be getting some of my money. I'll bet they can't do anything for the shift points though, can they? If the new valve hurts MPG, I'll simply unplug it.
Author:  BKH [ Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
After reading your mileage findings, it has me wondering - my CRD has ALWAYS been a low MPG engine in the city (16-18.0) and a freakishly high MPG engine on the highway (28-33.3). And these readings are from my own calculations, not the onboard computer's (which is sometimes accurate, sometimes not). I have a fair amount of smoke only when I just gun it (which is too often). Any chance mine is sticking open on the highway, giving me better mileage? It may be a stupid question, but I've always been curious why my mileage is so unusual. If it helps explain things, B100 will kill my mileage - both highway and city.
Author:  Serendipity [ Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
If your mileage is low and smoke is excessive, you could try unplugging the flow control valve and drive it a few days. You will get a CEL, but it will clear after a while when you plug the valve back in. Those of us with substandard mileage will have to figure it out ourselves. I can't think of a single thread on here where a dealer resolved a low MPG problem, or even took it seriously. If somebody knows of one, please point me at it.
Author:  Serendipity [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:40 am ]
Post subject: 
An update for those who might be interested. I had the EGR and the EGR flow control valve replaced under warranty. I was happy with it at first, but as time goes on, I am getting back to the low mileage and excess smoke. I unplugged the flow control over the weekend. Going to run it that way to check MPG. If nothing else it should give things a chance to clear out a little. I am surprised that unplugging the flow control doesn't trigger limp mode. Grateful, but surprised.
Author:  blacksmoke [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Interesting! have you by any chance took a look/cleaned your temp/boost sensor?
I did mine last weekend and noticed a nice improvement in MPG (per scanguage) and a more responsive engine response...
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