LOST JEEPS :: View topic - Supercharger on the CRD???

If you don't like Turbo Lag, would a supercharger be the answer to it?

Isn't the difference that the supercharger is an electric compressor that runs up when you first start the car?

Versus a turbo that runs off a belt on the engine?

Or am I confusing technologies here?

In any case, down the line (post-warranty), would replacing the turbo with a supercharger provide instant performance at the pedal w/out turbo lag?

Would it be possible with off-the-shelf supers, or would this be a custom application?

Thanks!

The amount of lag that is actually caused by the turbo in my opinon is very little. I believe 80% of what we perceive as turbo lag is actually electronically induced, especially in the case of a dead stop takeoff. I have noticed that once moving...say 20MPH or so if you stomp on it there is very little lag, boost is there, and you are moving. I LIKE this turbo and would not trade it for any supercharger.

I agree that a chip or tune of some sort would be able to eliminate most "lag" we experience.

I don't know of any supercharged commercial diesel applications, but I'm sure others more knowledgeable than me will inform you of applications where superchargers are used instead of turbos. The only supercharged diesels I know of were the units I worked on when I was in the military which were 6-71 and 3-53 Detroit Diesels.

Your inventing things. I can't imagine the electical load it would take to turn a supercharger! More than your alt. puts out that's for sure.

WHAT would you call an electric-powered blower running off the alternator? Does something like that even exist? Or have I invented something "new" in my head? LOL.

onthehunt wrote:

Your inventing things. I can't imagine the electical load it would take to turn a supercharger! More than your alt. puts out that's for sure.

Sweet! I'll patent it and claim it reduces smoke and emissions even though it takes 80% of the horsepower it produces to generate enough current in the alternator to run it! D/C will buy it for sure and put it in all their cars! :roll:

They already make one and it doesn't even use any power....it's call the tornado fuel saver :lol:

Author:	Special Agent [ Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:30 am ]
Post subject:	Supercharger on the CRD???
If you don't like Turbo Lag, would a supercharger be the answer to it? Isn't the difference that the supercharger is an electric compressor that runs up when you first start the car? Versus a turbo that runs off a belt on the engine? Or am I confusing technologies here? In any case, down the line (post-warranty), would replacing the turbo with a supercharger provide instant performance at the pedal w/out turbo lag? Would it be possible with off-the-shelf supers, or would this be a custom application? Thanks!

Author:	Napheus [ Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Supercharger on the CRD???
Special Agent wrote: If you don't like Turbo Lag, would a supercharger be the answer to it? Isn't the difference that the supercharger is an electric compressor that runs up when you first start the car? Versus a turbo that runs off a belt on the engine? Or am I confusing technologies here? In any case, down the line (post-warranty), would replacing the turbo with a supercharger provide instant performance at the pedal w/out turbo lag? Would it be possible with off-the-shelf supers, or would this be a custom application? Thanks! You are a bit confused. Turbo operates off the engine exhaust; as the engine runs faster and more exhaust exits the engine, the exhaust gases spin the turbo faster, which increases the amount of air compressed and drawn (forced) into the engine. Supercharging is run off of a belt connected to the engine. Since superchargers depend on engine speed and pulley ratio and not exhaust flow, there is no "lag" waiting for the supercharger to spool up; the boost is "there". I don't know of any supercharged commercial diesel applications, but I'm sure others more knowledgeable than me will inform you of applications where superchargers are used instead of turbos. The only supercharged diesels I know of were the units I worked on when I was in the military which were 6-71 and 3-53 Detroit Diesels. A supercharger would probably be a custom application where you would have to secure pulleys to drive it, not to mention space and brackets to mount it under the hood. Turbos and superchargers do the same thing; they are forced air induction, they just use different methods to achieve the same goal. At first glance, the supercharger appears to be a better option when you look at the cost of a turbo itself vs. the cost of a Paxton super charger for example, not to mention all the extra things you have to incorporate (which we already have) with the turbo to an engine; modification to the exhaust, plumbing for cooling and oiling, cooling of the turbo unit before shutting down the engine, etc. You don't have these issues with superchargers. After market sell ready made kits for some engines but there is a reason why millions of trucks and autos use turbochargers instead of superchargers. My guess would be because diesels typically run at lower engine speeds the supercharger isn't as efficient and would require changing pulleys to achieve usable boost. The turbo is more efficient because it isn't dependent on a mechanical connection, so the turbo provides more usable (albeit variable) boost at lower rpm. Someone more versed in the virtues of turbos can elaborate further. It seems you would be better off focusing your efforts on minimizing the turbo lag instead of trying to adopt a supercharger. There have been other discussion threads about turbo lag; seems maybe a chip might help. Look around the threads, there may even be newer ideas on how to limit or remove turbo lag completely.

Author:	Jeger [ Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:18 am ]
Post subject:
The amount of lag that is actually caused by the turbo in my opinon is very little. I believe 80% of what we perceive as turbo lag is actually electronically induced, especially in the case of a dead stop takeoff. I have noticed that once moving...say 20MPH or so if you stomp on it there is very little lag, boost is there, and you are moving. I LIKE this turbo and would not trade it for any supercharger. I agree that a chip or tune of some sort would be able to eliminate most "lag" we experience.

Author:	Joe Romas [ Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:14 am ]
Post subject:
Jeger wrote: The amount of lag that is actually caused by the turbo in my opinon is very little. I believe 80% of what we perceive as turbo lag is actually electronically induced, especially in the case of a dead stop takeoff. I have noticed that once moving...say 20MPH or so if you stomp on it there is very little lag, boost is there, and you are moving. I LIKE this turbo and would not trade it for any supercharger. I agree that a chip or tune of some sort would be able to eliminate most "lag" we experience. Exactly As RFCRD has explained they're holding back on the fuel till the turbo gets wound up good to keep the smoke level low I think it happens lower then 20 mph though, more like just get it moving then then push the peddle, BAMB Could also be "torque managment" to protect our ginger tc's

Author:	Jeger [ Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:53 am ]
Post subject:
I agree it does kick in well under 20. I just used that as an example...on a vehicle that has actual turbo lag you could be coasting along at 20...hit the throttle and it would not take off like the CRD does. The VGT turbo is awesome...worlds away from non variable turbo's. The worst case of turbo lag I can think of would be on some of the pulling tractors you see, It takes some of those suckers 10 seconds or more to spool up, but boy are they a blast once they get going!

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Author:	rs4mtnitro [ Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:47 am ]
Post subject:
A turbo is "free" power. By free I mean it doesn't take any horsepower to run it. A super charger runs of a belt, which takes H.P. to run. Drag cars and, in my experience, pulling tractors that run super charges make big H.P. (1200+ H.P.) but it take some where around 150 horse to spin the belt.

Author:	RFCRD [ Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Supercharger on the CRD???
Napheus wrote: I don't know of any supercharged commercial diesel applications, but I'm sure others more knowledgeable than me will inform you of applications where superchargers are used instead of turbos. The only supercharged diesels I know of were the units I worked on when I was in the military which were 6-71 and 3-53 Detroit Diesels. Detroit Diesel two-cycle were the last to use superchargers. They actually use both a supercharger and turbocharger on a 6V-92 or 8V-92. Supercharger will give you better low rpm delivery, turbochargers delivers better at higher rpm. Some new CAT engines use two turbos that are designed to spool at different rpm levels in lue of a VGT.

Author:	CRDburnouts [ Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:
I think you're talking about "twin-charging", that is using a supercharger and turbo charger, I know some Japanese vehicles with unlimited funds who have done this, its seems rather excessive. It would be a waste of time and money in my opinion, just buy a bigger turbo when your warranty runs out, thats probably what I am going to do...

Author:	no-blue-screen [ Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:
VW was also experimenting with their TSI .... http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08 ... _new_.html

Author:	spoonplugger1 [ Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:
Detroit Diesel 2 strokes like the 53, 71, 92 series etc. have to have a blower to run. The liners have ports in them that are the intake system, the blower is required to push air into the cylinders. No air, no run, remove the blower driveshaft on a 2 stroke and try to start it. It will blow little indian smoke signals out the exhaust, but won't run.

Author:	onthehunt [ Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:
One of my hopes in life is to never work on another 2-stroke detroit in my life. I don't think there is another engine made with more moving parts and sealing surfaces. Only thing going for them is the sound they make. Nothing sounds like a 8v92 2-stroke at 3000 rpm's!!!

Author:	Special Agent [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:13 am ]
Post subject:
Wow. Thanks guys! I was clearly mistaken. I always thought that Superchargers were "better". Sounds like we've got the good stuff now. I'm very pleased. So that brings me to my next question: WHAT would you call an electric-powered blower running off the alternator? Does something like that even exist? Or have I invented something "new" in my head? LOL. I guess after the warranty is up, I'll chip it and have the air intake and exhausts optimized... Prolly also get a better TC.

Author:	onthehunt [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:12 am ]
Post subject:
Your inventing things. I can't imagine the electical load it would take to turn a supercharger! More than your alt. puts out that's for sure.

Author:	Special Agent [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:07 am ]
Post subject:
onthehunt wrote: Your inventing things. I can't imagine the electical load it would take to turn a supercharger! More than your alt. puts out that's for sure. Sweet! I'll patent it and claim it reduces smoke and emissions even though it takes 80% of the horsepower it produces to generate enough current in the alternator to run it! D/C will buy it for sure and put it in all their cars!

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Author:	rs4mtnitro [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:21 am ]
Post subject:
Special Agent wrote: WHAT would you call an electric-powered blower running off the alternator? Does something like that even exist? Or have I invented something "new" in my head? LOL. There is a guy on e-bay selling crap like that. It's a blower motor hooked to the intake and he calls it a super charger.

Author:	KenJennings [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:32 am ]
Post subject:
Special Agent wrote: onthehunt wrote: Your inventing things. I can't imagine the electical load it would take to turn a supercharger! More than your alt. puts out that's for sure. Sweet! I'll patent it and claim it reduces smoke and emissions even though it takes 80% of the horsepower it produces to generate enough current in the alternator to run it! D/C will buy it for sure and put it in all their cars! You must hate us all. You are truly evil.

Author:	no-blue-screen [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:54 am ]
Post subject:
They already make one and it doesn't even use any power....it's call the tornado fuel saver

Author:	Special Agent [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:
no-blue-screen wrote: They already make one and it doesn't even use any power....it's call the tornado fuel saver Oh hell yeah, that's a truly inspired invention! But mine is better. Mine's got MORE POWER! ARHH ARHHH ARHHH!!!