LOST JEEPS :: View topic - GM uses VM Motori V6 diesel

It will be interesting how the GM folks work out the EGR stuff.

KJMedic wrote:

It will be interesting how the GM folks work out the EGR stuff.

The EGR issues are mostly behind VM Motori now.
I'd just be interested in seeing how GM's transmission and torque convertor handle the 2.9L's torque !

Greg

The EGR issues are mostly behind VM Motori now.

Greg

I am really starting to think that the EGR issue is because of the crappy fuel in the US. I have not had a single issue with my egr.

jinstall wrote:

I am really starting to think that the EGR issue is because of the crappy fuel in the US. I have not had a single issue with my egr.

I believe the clogging was due to the low grade high sulfur diesel, but the failure was very likely due to a poor design, as pointed out by MrMopar64. He disclosed that the Euro models had a different design, one which cooled the egr gas before it reached the valve itself. The US egr valve design puts the hot exhaust gas directly on the valve before the cooler.

Then, you have a much larger volume of TDI's using the same US spec diesel that weren't failing, just clogging. The TDI egr valve appears to be twice the size of the CRD valve from the posted pictures, and was used on an engine which due to its smaller displacement, requires less egr cycling than our CRD's. So I believe it was a combination of factors responsible.

Hopefully, with the newer valve, this is behind us for at least 80k to 100k miles.

If i remember right International is using post DPF Exhaust, it may not be, but in one of the Trade magazines about light and medium duty trucks one of the many manufacturers was planing on this option for their medium duty diesel engines (think 20,000# GVW). It was only one company though, it may have been after Cat exhaust also, but its been about year since I read that so my memory is failing.

K

Author:	Ranger1 [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:24 am ]
Post subject:	GM uses VM Motori V6 diesel
Mar 6, 2007 General Motors unveiled its new 2.9-liter turbodiesel V6, which will see its first installation in the European-market Cadillac CTS. The new engine can be installed in transverse or longitudinal applications and is expected to see use in other Cadillac vehicles such as the next SRX crossover. Production of the engine will be handled by VM Motori in Cento, Italy. Previously, VM Motori had worked with DaimlerChrysler to supply diesel engines for the US-market Jeep Liberty CRD. http://www.thecarlounge.com/newsindex.html

Author:	KJMedic [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:
It will be interesting how the GM folks work out the EGR stuff.

Author:	BVCRD [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:
KJMedic wrote: It will be interesting how the GM folks work out the EGR stuff. Perhaps nothing needs worked out with the use of ULSD now. That and a little nose blowing from time to time.

Author:	Ranger1 [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:
KJMedic wrote: It will be interesting how the GM folks work out the EGR stuff. Europe has less strict requirements on NOX emissions and focuses more on CO2. This means their diesel engines don't use as much EGR as the US models do. More EGR, more soot. As to ULSD, the author of the statement "blowing its nose", a poster named Carribou from Edmunds, noted that with his CRD using only 50ppm near ULSD from day one, it still has an issue with EGR soot as well - it just took longer. Iirc, his egr has a vacuum hose that he can disconnect (without a CEL light if I remember correctly). Note that TDI diesels in the US, using the same poor quality, 500ppm rated diesel, had clogging issues with their EGR valves, but were not noted for EGR valve failures in the same timeframe as our CRD's. They have a routine cleaning procedure listed on the TDI site. I would expect the egr issues to slow down with ULSD, but not necessarily disappear due to the very strick NOx limits.

Author:	gsbrockman [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:
KJMedic wrote: It will be interesting how the GM folks work out the EGR stuff. The EGR issues are mostly behind VM Motori now. I'd just be interested in seeing how GM's transmission and torque convertor handle the 2.9L's torque ! Greg

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Author:	BVCRD [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:
gsbrockman wrote: KJMedic wrote: It will be interesting how the GM folks work out the EGR stuff. The EGR issues are mostly behind VM Motori now. I'd just be interested in seeing how GM's transmission and torque convertor handle the 2.9L's torque ! Greg Yea, you hear of one or two now and again, but nothing like pre-ULSD days.

Author:	CHessMaster [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:29 am ]
Post subject:
gsbrockman wrote: The EGR issues are mostly behind VM Motori now. Greg If this were true, we would all be satisfied with how our CRDs run, but we're not. If your statement is assuming most CRD's will be out of warranty in the near future, then I would agree with it.

Author:	G-funk [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:53 am ]
Post subject:
maybe they'll offer it as a crate motor now I just need to find an El Camino

Author:	jinstall [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:25 am ]
Post subject:
I am really starting to think that the EGR issue is because of the crappy fuel in the US. I have not had a single issue with my egr.

Author:	BVCRD [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:23 am ]
Post subject:
jinstall wrote: I am really starting to think that the EGR issue is because of the crappy fuel in the US. I have not had a single issue with my egr. Basically, it is/was. That and argueably poor design. I too have not had a hickup out of mine. 24,000+ miles.

Author:	Ranger1 [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:14 am ]
Post subject:
jinstall wrote: I am really starting to think that the EGR issue is because of the crappy fuel in the US. I have not had a single issue with my egr. I believe the clogging was due to the low grade high sulfur diesel, but the failure was very likely due to a poor design, as pointed out by MrMopar64. He disclosed that the Euro models had a different design, one which cooled the egr gas before it reached the valve itself. The US egr valve design puts the hot exhaust gas directly on the valve before the cooler. Then, you have a much larger volume of TDI's using the same US spec diesel that weren't failing, just clogging. The TDI egr valve appears to be twice the size of the CRD valve from the posted pictures, and was used on an engine which due to its smaller displacement, requires less egr cycling than our CRD's. So I believe it was a combination of factors responsible. Hopefully, with the newer valve, this is behind us for at least 80k to 100k miles.

Author:	MrMopar64 [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:18 am ]
Post subject:
Just as a clarification, the EGR is controlled through air mass setpoints so thus it is running (@ a certain percentage)all the time based on the air control governing, unless of course you're at idle too long or you're at WOT, not just in on-off intervals. The advantage that the new 2.0L common-rail VW engines have (as used in the Caliber, Sebring, etc.) is that the EGR cooler is about twice the size of the VM unit and thus they're able to effectively run higher rates of EGR and thus lower the NOx emissions that much more.

Author:	Ranger1 [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:42 am ]
Post subject:
Thanks!

Author:	Ranger1 [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:44 am ]
Post subject:	MrMopar64
Are you aware of any effort to use clean exhaust gas from behind DPF filters on the newer diesels? At least this exhaust gas would be soot free.

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Author:	MrMopar64 [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:
I've not heard of anyone using the exhaust from after the DPF as it would be a plumbing trainwreck most likely. As a side note, a year or so back there used to be a Caddy STS that had a prototype 3.0L CRD engine in it and that was quite a car. Granted the engine was all custom built and leaked like a sieve, but it was still a very nice package. Last I heard from colleagues the Caddy engine was still 3.0L not 2.9L, but who knows apparently...

Author:	allscan [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:
jinstall wrote: I am really starting to think that the EGR issue is because of the crappy fuel in the US. I have not had a single issue with my egr. I have 45k miles on my 05 and have not had any EGR problems, thank God. I believe it has something to do with the fuel I use (truck stop, goes through a ton of fuel each day) as well as the length of commute (40 miles one way, engine gets nice and warm even on cold days).

Author:	Kniggit [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:
If i remember right International is using post DPF Exhaust, it may not be, but in one of the Trade magazines about light and medium duty trucks one of the many manufacturers was planing on this option for their medium duty diesel engines (think 20,000# GVW). It was only one company though, it may have been after Cat exhaust also, but its been about year since I read that so my memory is failing. K

Author:	Ranger1 [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:
[quote="MrMopar64"]I've not heard of anyone using the exhaust from after the DPF as it would be a plumbing trainwreck most likely. If they used flex stainless from the DPF back to the intake, I'd be willing to pay the extra cost to keep the gritty soot out of the engine and oil. It's not a train wreck to run an exhaust pipe out the rear of the vehicle, should be a way to get particulate-free exhaust gas back to the engine intake. Especially in view of the fact that the customer is paying for these DPF and other emissions controls, which are capable of remove the particulates from the exhaust and then have the dirtier soot piped directly into the engine. When looked at systemically, it's almost a comedy of errors when you think about it - we use oil filters with micron size trapping capabilities to eliminate wear contaminants, we use micron sized fuel filters to do the same for the fuel system, but then we pipe carbon soot and other exhaust contaminants straight into the upper cylinder, right past the valves and engine sensors ! Expectations of long diesel engine life is based on past experiences with those engines not running egr soot right into the top cylinder. I suspect if/once the accelerated wear starts showing up due to carbon soot on piston rings, diesels will be a harder sell for car companies. With the US focused on NOx emissions, and using increasing amounts of egr, soot particle wear is going to an issue to deal with. RFCRD mentioned (via a pm) some large diesels in his company having extreme accelerated upper cylinder wear due to the egr soot. I would really like to see diesel engine designers come up with a solution to eliminate the soot if they must use exhaust gas for emissions control.

Author:	jinstall [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:27 am ]
Post subject:
Ranger1 wrote: jinstall wrote: I am really starting to think that the EGR issue is because of the crappy fuel in the US. I have not had a single issue with my egr. I believe the clogging was due to the low grade high sulfur diesel, but the failure was very likely due to a poor design, as pointed out by MrMopar64. He disclosed that the Euro models had a different design, one which cooled the egr gas before it reached the valve itself. The US egr valve design puts the hot exhaust gas directly on the valve before the cooler. Then, you have a much larger volume of TDI's using the same US spec diesel that weren't failing, just clogging. The TDI egr valve appears to be twice the size of the CRD valve from the posted pictures, and was used on an engine which due to its smaller displacement, requires less egr cycling than our CRD's. So I believe it was a combination of factors responsible. Hopefully, with the newer valve, this is behind us for at least 80k to 100k miles. Mine has not failed. Nor has my EGR been replaced by a E-spec EGR.

Author:	jinstall [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:30 am ]
Post subject:
Kniggit wrote: If i remember right International is using post DPF Exhaust, it may not be, but in one of the Trade magazines about light and medium duty trucks one of the many manufacturers was planing on this option for their medium duty diesel engines (think 20,000# GVW). It was only one company though, it may have been after Cat exhaust also, but its been about year since I read that so my memory is failing. K DPF filters are required here since 2006. Not all cars have it but the heaver SUV, like the KJ have them.